Blackstone Lab report.NOT HAPPY!

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hounddog

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Ila Georgia,outside Athens Georgia
I have a 1998 Dodge 1500 v8 automatic.It has 94k on it now.At 40k I did a fluid exchange with AMSOIL ATF and added a trans cooler.At 60k did a filter change and top off with AMSOIL ATF.Now at 94k the fluid was a grape purple.I sent a sample to BLACKSTONE LABS.REPORT SAYS "Wear read high.Copper,lead and tin from clutch plates are most out of line.Aluminum(torque converter)is also high.Not all ATF's are compatible with all transmissions.Suggest switching over to whatever Dodge recommends and flushing the system.Check back in 20k. The switching over to Chrysler ATF+4 is a surprise.Blackstone surely knows its ATF+4 but doesn't 'SAY" it.They have had to have seen this before I would think. I thought I was USING a superior fliud using Amsoil full synthetic ATF.I'm VERY disappointed.Any thoughts on this?
 
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On your previous post you typed: "With the FACTORY fluid I had some torque converter lock up shutter.....and the AMSOIL ATF eliminated that.It still shifts and locks up good,no shudder going into lockup....."

Perhaps rather than blame the fluid, maybe focus on Chrysler and their problematic transmissions. Fluids don't always solve problems.

Blackstone comment? Post your ATF UOA so we can comment. I would NOT trust their comments in the least. Good lab, but not accredited and certainly some strange comments over the years.
 
I agree with Pablo. During your model year, Chrysler had flawed transmissions in many of their vehicles due to poor engineering. Many of their engines weren't much better either especially when it came to head gaskets in some of the four cylinders. There was a transmission shop where I grew up that named a hoist after a Dodge Caravan because there was always one on it. The called it the Caravan lift.

I've never used AMSOIL ATF, but no fluid is a cure-all.
 
Not to defend Chrysler but was a SERVICE MANAGER in a large Chrysler store in 1998.Headgaskets were Neons only and Chrysler wasn't the only manufacture with 4 cyl head gasket issues.Most of the auto trannys we built or replaced were CARAVANS and MOST had 100k plus with no or very little maintance ever done.Lots of Wally wagons with LOTS of hard usaage.Anyway saw very few RWD with issues.I AM dissapointed in the AMSOIL with the wear numbers I got.Aluminum 84 average 20.Iron 147 average is 96,Copper 206 average 51,Lead 370 average 39,Tin 11 average is 4.
 
I am sure a large portion of those parts per million are clean up of material on the clutch packs, especially since your tranny was slipping and/or shuddering before. For this and your mods and the tranny type, you certainly can't compare the ppm numbers to engine numbers - 54K miles.

Blackstone's "average" is pretty meaningless in these situations. Ask them EXACTLY how they derived the numbers. I can tell you, it's not with this transmission in this truck, with these mods.

I guaranty if you randomly switch fluids your metals will go down next flush, even if that random choice is Amsoil ATF. Clean-up is probably complete.
 
Is this the truck in question? "1998 Dodge 1500 318, headers,Fastman t/b ,Superchips program,Harlan Sharp 1.7 roller rockers,Dynomax muffler."

If so, what is a Fastman t/b and exactly how is this truck driven?

What kind of trans cooler did you install at 40K?
 
Truck is my daily driver.I'm 54 and yea I stand on it some but very seldom any kind of hard shifts and never from a dead stop.I don't haul anything more then home trash to the dump with it.The Throttle body is Modified by THE FASTMAN.Air horn removed,throttle bore enlarged with brass throttle plates.It was enlarged from I think 47mm to 50mm.It makes throttle response more snappy.The trans cooler is fairly large.Not the largest that was available but one size below the largest.I don't remember the GVWR the cooler was good for.Of course I did the cooler to keep trans heat down etc.I just talked to BLACKSTONE and they said the main difference in ATF+4 and the AMSOIL fliud is the AMSOIL has a fair amount more ZINC and BORUM then the Chrysler fliud.He said in motor oil that means the Amsoil is more slick.Said not sure if in ATF if it does the same thing.(makes it more slick)I know with ATF+4 I had some torque converter shudder going into lockup.That went away within 10 miles of installing AMSOIL ATF in it back when and its never shuddered since.
 
if you "stand on it", then by definition you are putting severe conditions on your transmission.

Cleaning may be a real phenomenon. It has been seen when redline was used in many engines. Also I have to wonder about the quality and presence of metals from your cooler and lines.

If your ATF cooler is too large, the fluid may not be getting to a correct temperature so that operating viscosity is correct. If it is not, then some design parameters may be screwed up.

There are a lot of things mentioned in here, a lot of things that are modified from original, and the use profile doesnt necessarily yield the world's best UOA.

You need to go back and look carefully at all the reasons. Maybe the fluid you picked was not the best for the application, that happens. Maybe it was cleaning and skewed the UOA. Youll likely need a few more UOA to get a full picture of the condition of your AT.
 
Why exactly did you add the tranny cooler at 40k? You say you don't haul and that it's just your daily driver, that makes me wonder why you did that. Like JH said, that may have contributed to the problem by not letting the tranny get up to the proper operating temp.

I also agree with Pablo in that you had some cleanup going on, and if you switch fluids ( to any brand ) you will get better numbers next time.
 
I have seen ATF go from red, to pink, to brunt brown, but I have never seen it turn grape purple. Has anything else been added to this trans? Does the fluid smell burnt?
 
Added the cooler just as a p.m.to keep heat down etc.Towed a bass boat a few times with it years back and thought I'd pull it a lot.Sold boat after a move.Fliud is not burnt and lab reports also confirms that.I just got back from the small dealer near me.I know the techs etc.Had them pull the pan.Pan hasn't been off in 34k.Nothing much in it.Some fine stuff on the magnetic but nothing unusal.Checked both ban adjustments.Didn't need any fooling with.So I'm going to run it this way another 5k and if I don't have a 09 by then I'll do a fliud exchange again with Amsoil I think.We'll see.
 
Originally Posted By: hounddog
Truck is my daily driver.I'm 54 and yea I stand on it some but very seldom any kind of hard shifts and never from a dead stop.I don't haul anything more then home trash to the dump with it.The Throttle body is Modified by THE FASTMAN.Air horn removed,throttle bore enlarged with brass throttle plates.It was enlarged from I think 47mm to 50mm.It makes throttle response more snappy.The trans cooler is fairly large.Not the largest that was available but one size below the largest.I don't remember the GVWR the cooler was good for.Of course I did the cooler to keep trans heat down etc.I just talked to BLACKSTONE and they said the main difference in ATF+4 and the AMSOIL fliud is the AMSOIL has a fair amount more ZINC and BORUM then the Chrysler fliud.He said in motor oil that means the Amsoil is more slick.Said not sure if in ATF if it does the same thing.(makes it more slick)I know with ATF+4 I had some torque converter shudder going into lockup.That went away within 10 miles of installing AMSOIL ATF in it back when and its never shuddered since.


I do not believe Amsoil ATF has any Zinc in it. If a UOA for Amsoil ATF shows Zinc its residual. Maybe Pablo will confirm this.

I would add some Auto-Rx, run 1500 miles and do a cooler line flush with Amsoil ATF and add some type of decent filter.
 
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Well dodge makes a [censored] trans. Let's get that out of the way. I'm not sure we'll really know if Amsoil is to blame or not. Might be a bad combo for all we know... to many variables. I've put Amsoil ATF in 2 cars. 2001 V6 4runner & a 2001 Lexus RX300.

4runners experience: bought it with 48k from yota dealer. Original fluid looked great but wanted to change it as prev maint at 60k. Changed fluid out for Amsoil and cleaned OEM trans screen per Factory Service Manual. I've done a few of these. Ran great to about 80k. Trans started to pop and was on it's way out. Sold vehicle shortly after this started.


RX300: changed the fluid & filter out for the first time ever at 80k. Car now has 135k. No problems thus far. But it does shift slightly different than before and other RX's I've driven. Plan on changing it out at 140k to OE spec ToyotaIV? fluid from Valvoline or something.


the only thing that makes me nervous about the Amsoil ATF is how it meets every spec in the book. It's the one size fits all. From what I gather different types of fluids have different properties for reasons. Dexron III, or VI won't work where ford SP is spec'd. who knows.
 
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If you did not get a sample from previously used fluid (at the same miles) to TREND then a 1 shot UOA is not relable in that the current fluid maybe claening gunk out of the trans. refill and run same mileage with same oil then test again the wear metals maybe down. Have to have a baseline to see where you are going.
bruce
 
Originally Posted By: bruce381
If you did not get a sample from previously used fluid (at the same miles) to TREND then a 1 shot UOA is not relable in that the current fluid maybe claening gunk out of the trans. refill and run same mileage with same oil then test again the wear metals maybe down. Have to have a baseline to see where you are going.
bruce


Sounds good (and I agree) but hard to do. Many people do pan drops rather than a flush so its not 100% new fluid like changing the engine oil. And if I was unhappy with the UOA for my ATF, not sure I would want to run another 25K miles on fresh ATF of the same kind to take a UOA and see if my ATF was really good stuff. And if you only run for 5K or 10K, maybe any ATF would look good.

Having said that I would beyond the Amsoil ATF for a problem. If your vehicle is speced for Amsoil ATF, then its great stuff to use. Not sure there is a better ATF out there.
 
Originally Posted By: Stephen M.
I agree. Automatic transmission fluid turns brown when the clutch packs and bands begin to wear.

Not true. Transmission fluid discolors with normal use, the color change it not necessarily a sign of problems.
 
Stick to a Mother approved fluid ie +4 type.
The trans is made for it. Note that dexron
has properties thats far from +4 so a universal oil....
 
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