Big Pay for Execs that cut Jobs....wrong!

[Tempest]

Quote:
The true definition of "the creation of wealth" is when more people are moved toward self actualization than are moved away from it. Otherwise, you're confusing it with just getting wealthy. It's hardly the same thing.

If I can hold an economic gun to your head and empty your wallet into mine ..and a few others. I'll get wealthy. I created nothing other than the mechanism to turn your productivity into mine. Hardly a "beneficial" creation of mine ..to anyone other than myself. In fact, I had to degrade several others to do it.

Ok, so we have just established that all government wealth transfer and social programs make a society poorer. Good to know.



Where does wealth come from? Adding value to something. Iron in the ground adds no wealth, but digging it up and turning it into a tool or car does add wealth as it improves people's lives.
People buy that tool or car because they want it more than the money they pay for it. And the iron minor wants the money more than he wants the iron.

Information also adds value, and this is where the protectionists go off the rails. That dug up iron ore is of little value unless one knows how to refine and then alloy it. And then one must have techniques to turn it into useful products. The people that are deriving those techniques AND communicating them to people that actually handle the iron are adding value to the product.

It's called intellectual property, protected by patents and it's one of the prime reasons for the wealth of the USA. It's even more valuable than manufacturing and why it's so important to maintain an economic environment conducive to inventiveness.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Tempest



Where does wealth come from? Adding value to something. Iron in the ground adds no wealth, but digging it up and turning it into a tool or car does add wealth as it improves people's lives.
People buy that tool or car because they want it more than the money they pay for it. And the iron minor wants the money more than he wants the iron.

Information also adds value, and this is where the protectionists go off the rails. That dug up iron ore is of little value unless one knows how to refine and then alloy it. And then one must have techniques to turn it into useful products. The people that are deriving those techniques AND communicating them to people that actually handle the iron are adding value to the product.

It's called intellectual property, protected by patents and it's one of the prime reasons for the wealth of the USA. It's even more valuable than manufacturing and why it's so important to maintain an economic environment conducive to inventiveness.

Where do you throw "protectionism" as bad into this? So-called protectionism would protect intellectual property and patents. It's free trade that is causing patent violations, with all those Chinese knock offs.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
It's free trade that is causing patent violations, with all those Chinese knock offs.

You mean like how the Soviet Union copied our stuff during the cold war when we had almost no trade at all with them?

International patent infringement occurs regardless of trade barriers. And it's a lot better to be an open partner with a country as at least that way they might want to actually pay for better ideas.

 

[onion]

Intellectual property is an arbitrary government intervention into a free market. And if you doubt me, feel free to google the MULTIPLE supreme court rulings that have held that intellectual property is not a natural right, but a 'right' arbitrarily legislated by the government solely for the purpose of "advancing the arts and sciences".

Now I'm not saying that intellectual property protections are necessarily a bad thing... just pointing out that if you support them, then you support government intervention and redistribution of wealth (in the sense that intellectual property has monetary value).

In a 'free market' where we're all free to do what the [censored] we want so long as we aren't stealing from or hurting the next guy, there would be no such thing as patents, copyrights, or the like. And anybody who wanted to make a living off such would have to go out and get a real job... or find a way to produce CD's (for example) that physically CAN'T be copied.

Perhaps the 'free market' isn't always exactly perfect and ideal?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
You don't reconcile that there's a permanent requirement for an optimum unemployment rate for your market costs to be controlled.

Ah that again. How strange we had 1.8% unemployment in the 1920 during one of our most prosperous times.


Wasn't the 1.8% in 1919 ?

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Can you please show that it is the EXACT SAME 5% that is perpetually unemployed and that these people aren't unemployed due to their own choices?


Why does it have to be exactly the same people/persons for there to be a general trend that higher unemployment means lower wages, and stronger employment higher wages ?

The economists talk about "optimum unemployment" rates to provide downward pressure on wages and inflation.

Surely as a market man you'd know about supply, demand, and price.

Consider the trends shown here, from 1920 to 1930.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/Smiley.1920s.final

1920, unemployment 5%, average male wage $29.16
1921, unemployment 9%, average male wage $26.19
1922, unemployment 7%, average male wage $28.73
1923, unemployment 5%, average male wage $30.93
1924, unemployment 6%, average male wage $30.61
1925, unemployment 5%, average male wage $30.57
1926, unemployment 4%, average male wage $30.60
1927, unemployment 5%, average male wage $31.09
1928, unemployment 5%, average male wage $31.94
1929, unemployment 5%, average male wage $32.60
1921, unemployment 9%, average male wage $29.93

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
Which will cost less? The machines, which allows for money and resources to be used on other projects, which can employ more people.

So, do you want people to be digging with spoons?



I find this post quite interesting because the exact opposite is happening with our economy and production in NA, all in the name of cost cutting. We off-shored, and are still off-shoring most of the high skilled work and highly automated and optimized manufacturing processes to places like China and Korea, that have nothing but thousands of "spoon diggers", and what other "projects" were left for the skilled people in NA? NONE.

 

[Cutehumor]

doesn't it say something when we have almost 10% unemployment and our country doesn't seem to have missed a beat. did the economy cut alot of dead weight jobs? I read some crazy stat somewhere that we would have to add 300,000 jobs every month for the next three years to get the unemployment rate back down to 5%. If I was laid off during this great recession, I would be looking for a career change.

 

[Kestas]

I remember in college our econ professor told us it's nearly impossible to get less than 3% unemployment. The 3% are the people who are in between jobs for whatever reason, or maybe unemployable.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Ok, so we have just established that all government wealth transfer and social programs make a society poorer. Good to know.


In your mind you made that connection with the total absence of the logic train to form/support the assertion. Cite the mechanics

aka: a hollow decree of validity with no evidential support. The facsimile of truth due to repetitive citing.

Quote:
Where does wealth come from?


You ask this again and again and again and again and never state where you feel it comes from. This is your continued worship of the wealthy as though they "dispense" or "grant" wealth to others. They amass it from the total pool of productivity.

We are not here to serve them. We do not toil to better them. We toil to better ourselves. If that turns into toiling to decay while they advance, then your faith in these nobles is ill placed. They do a disservice to the society and to the nation.

Those who run those who run things are negligent and are doing a poor job of making participation in their racket pay. It's turned into a "managed decline" ..where they do not share the consequences for their ill management. I give them a FAIL.

Quote:
Where does wealth come from? Adding value to something. Iron in the ground adds no wealth, but digging it up and turning it into a tool or car does add wealth as it improves people's lives.


Sure ..as long as those lives are American. Otherwise, why do I care about the advancement of a foreigner when it does a disservice to my livelihood? What's in it for me for me to be all joy-joy-well-well happy about it?

Quote:
Information also adds value, and this is where the protectionists go off the rails. That dug up iron ore is of little value unless one knows how to refine and then alloy it. And then one must have techniques to turn it into useful products. The people that are deriving those techniques AND communicating them to people that actually handle the iron are adding value to the product.


..and again, just what good does this for Americans? You've left that out at every point. I'll even refine it to close your escape hatch. What good does it do the nation and the society in TOTAL?

Quote:
It's called intellectual property, protected by patents and it's one of the prime reasons for the wealth of the USA. It's even more valuable than manufacturing and why it's so important to maintain an economic environment conducive to inventiveness.


Ditto. Just what sense does that make? You say that it's more important than manufacturing. Tell that to all those that are now subject to the "tinkle down" method service economy where their cost of living need not be borne by the service economy. Manufacturing assured that the cost of a worker was included in every piece.

You still haven't given a purpose for all the unneeded people. What happens to those Americans in your (would be) para-feudal Utopia?

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
doesn't it say something when we have almost 10% unemployment and our country doesn't seem to have missed a beat. did the economy cut alot of dead weight jobs? I read some crazy stat somewhere that we would have to add 300,000 jobs every month for the next three years to get the unemployment rate back down to 5%. If I was laid off during this great recession, I would be looking for a career change.


I'm not sure what you mean by the economy hasn't skipped a beat despite the unemployment rate. It is hard to find a job, any job, let alone one that will make a living. Homes are stil being repocessed and are hard to sell. Car sells are still not exactly too great.

 

[mechanicx]

IMO this whole great recession was essentially caused by the wealthy (Wallstreet particularly)redistributing too much wealth to themselves and sitting on it. It sure wasn't cause by unproductive, overpayed workers saving money and not spending. A like how some say government spending is the big problem (I agree it is a problem but for different reasons) when much of the spending is contacts to private business. Billions go to private contractors and they have their lobbyist.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
In a 'free market' where we're all free to do what the [censored] we want so long as we aren't stealing from or hurting the next guy, there would be no such thing as patents, copyrights, or the like. And anybody who wanted to make a living off such would have to go out and get a real job... or find a way to produce CD's (for example) that physically CAN'T be copied.

If you build a machine and someone steals it, they can be prosecuted for theft.

By your logic, if someone steals your plans and documentation (ideas) for that machine, no theft has occurred. If that is the case then there is no incentive to design things as your ideas, and the LABOR it took to make them useful, could simply be stolen.

That is why having patents is in no way contrary to a free market.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Billions go to private contractors and they have their lobbyist.

Yes, and that is why gov. spending is the problem. The money taken from people by force is given to the politically connected and used for unneeded or unproductive things.

Mis-allocation of resources.

 

[Gary Allan]

 

[Shannow]

s'pose the quickest way to fix the system (or at least partially repair it) would be to pull out all of that govt spending on planes, arms, boats and technology that aren't immediately marketable to everyone today...phhht, R&D on weapons,when it's stolen at the point of a gun from taxpayers who know best where their money is spent is all a tad circular.

 

[Gary Allan]

oh ..that's different..