Bentley GTC OEM at 3,000mi

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Buster,

Well, it's just a matter of resolution. If you can pull the engine apart, as is done in sequence testing, you can determine where the wear is occurring, and how severe it is. However, there are plenty of papers out there where physical measurements have been correlated to ppm wear results. It's just that when you measure the oil, you're getting an average of every possible wear source.

The reality is that most issues are detergent and dispersant issues. If those additive packages are correct, most problems with most oil in most engines are solved. (That's why pretty much anyone can choose base oils, and then poor in an additive kit from Lubrizol and make a good oil.) It just takes money and some lab beakers. Most of the time it works just fine.

In studies of wear vs. viscosity, or wear vs. HTHS, the conclusion is generally that it is the detergent and dispersant packages that are most important, along with other high pressure and anti-wear additives. You can only measure real differences in wear vs. viscosity or HTHS when the additives are held constant. And, conversely, when the additives are degraded, either by depletion (run time) or contamination (fuel, soot) wear goes up. And where does it go up, well in the boundary and mixed lubrication regimes, where the hydrodynamic film has collapsed. If the dispersants don't carry the debris away to the filter, you get more wear. If the contaminants neutralize or dissolve the high pressure anti wear layers, you get more wear at the cams, chains, followers ... etc.

The difference in different oil formulations is all in the additives. For many engines, who cares. The environment is just not that severe. In other engines, where the environment is severe (turbos, DI, high HP, high rpm) the difference between oil formulations and chemistry can be seen in the light of day. I suspect that this bothers some oil formulators, which is why they make excuses for their high wear numbers in some applications.

BTW, none of the sequence testing I am aware of uses fuel diluting engines.
 
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Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
However, there are plenty of papers out there where physical measurements have been correlated to ppm wear results.


Can you link to one?
 
I'm curious as to "why" you have decided to run the factory-fill this long...

I know you could change it out at anytime, yourself!
grin2.gif
 
I only have time for a fairly quick response but there are at least three things that have brought me to the conclusion that UOA does not necessarily correlate to engine wear:

1) Some proportion of wear is represented by particles caught by the oil filter. This would vary so much, it seems; depending on the filter, how long it has been in use, and what the particle-size curve is; that the proportion of wear represented by the filter could vary extremely.

2) Some proportion of the wear metals measured by UOA could be the result of corrosion or other chemical action on non-wear surfaces and therefore irrelevant to actual wear.

3) There is still the possibility that some chemical wear might better be classified as "cleaning" rather than wear, and it is impossible to tell how much. This is often proposed as the reason for Red Line's highish wear metals, the idea being that the highly polar oil pulls loosely-attached metal molecules from the surface. Since if true this would tend to pull most at the edges of the microscopically jagged metal surfaces and other small bits that are already tenuously attached, it might smooth the surface and leave fewer vulnerable future wear sites, and therefore actually work as an anti-wear mechanism over the long term.

I haven't seen anything that authoritatively links ppm numbers to actual wear on a physical basis. I have seen several things posted here that show the opposite: that ppm numbers do not accurately represent wear in many situations. I have seen the analysis industry claim that UOA is a good guide to wear, but only through the establishment of trends in a given engine (where some of these variables are reduced), and I have seen even that questioned with apparent cause in certain articles.

It is for these reasons that over the recent past I have revised my own opinion of the usefulness of UOA for comparing wear between engines or between oils, and possibly even for tracking wear in a given engine. I still think it is a useful tool but that correlation to actual wear is highly questionable.

I would like to be wrong about that, by the way, since it seems so nice and simple to be able to look at a UOA and conclude useful things about the engine's wear rate and the performance of the oil. But it's what I've come to accept.
 
Originally Posted By: DmanWho
I'm curious as to "why" you have decided to run the factory-fill this long...
I know you could change it out at anytime, yourself!
grin2.gif



I am doing this to demonstrate serial UOA for the masses. Many things are seen this way. It assumes good sampling techniques and analysis. Most would do a single UOA in 4,000 miles. We can see what is happening during the whole interval this way. I am waiting for some input from Terry Dyson when he gets to it. I may end it here and not go to 4k after I have him look into it.

On the other hand I may continue further just to continue the experiment.

aehaas
 
I found your Si level relatively low for a factory-fill, especially compared to my Si of 93.
shocked2.gif
Granted, this is a Bentley, not an econo-box.
I do wish someone would have wiped/vacuumed mine out, before assembly. Sorry, I digress...

Any ideas as to why there's a noticeable 'bump' in copper and lead metal values, within the last 1,000 miles?
 
Comments from Terry Dyson with Dyson Analysis were very revealing:

He stated that this ICP test (not his method) is “blind to larger particles”. Counting larger particles is very important for a proper analysis.
The Fe is way up for this W12 engine and is from multiple sources.
The rings are not seated and fuel dilution is high, a cause for elevated phosphorous.
The numbers show elevated ring, piston, block and bearing wear that is probably under-reported because of the testing methodology.
The turbos are just starting to wear.

Basically he said to get the oil out ASAP. I shall do this ASAP. I have a lot of Castrol GC 0W30 so I shall put this in until I use it up.

aehaas
 
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
..............The rings are not seated and fuel dilution is high.....


Interesting. What break in procedure did you follow?
 
I can't imagine what the factory-fill would have looked like, at Bentley's recommended 10,000 mile OCI.

Why would Bentley recommend such an extended OCI on the factory-fill? I wonder if it has anything to do with M1's mileage specifications...
 
Originally Posted By: DmanWho
I can't imagine what the factory-fill would have looked like, at Bentley's recommended 10,000 mile OCI.

Why would Bentley recommend such an extended OCI on the factory-fill? I wonder if it has anything to do with M1's mileage specifications...



Simple really. 94% of all Bentleys see less than 45K miles on the clock.

I searched on Autotrader. There are 1066 Bentley listings

4 > 100K miles
1028 < 100K miles
1025 < 75K miles (96%)
1017 < 60K miles (95%)
1008 < 45K miles (94%)
965 < 30K miles (90%)
797 < 15K miles (75%)
34 undisclosed mileage

All Bentley has to do is make an engine that makes it through a full and then an extended CPO used warranty. Based on the used car data, I'd say that after being resold used, Bentleys rarely see more than 50K miles total before a warranty expires.
 
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Quote:

"Lubrication is a vital part of the engine development process, key to ensuring engine protection and reliability at maximum performance levels," says Dr. Heinz-Jakob Neusser, Head of Engine and Development Systems, Porsche AG. "ExxonMobil engineers are actively involved in the development of all new Porsche road and racing engines, from the latest 911 Turbo through to the RS Spyder prototype," he added.

Due to poor fuel quality in the often remote areas where SUV vehicles are so popular, impurities in the fuel after combustion create residue which can block the flow of lubricants around the engine, fouling internal components. In tests, Porsche identified that Mobil 1 was very effective at absorbing and suspending the impurities, preventing any hindrance to the efficient and safe functioning of the engine.
"Technology is a critical enabler for lubricants, and the close collaboration between our scientists, engineers and business partners is a key factor in developing the most innovative products," explains ExxonMobil's Bill Maxwell, Mobil 1 Team Leader since 1989. "In return, we are able to provide manufacturers such as Porsche with one consistent, premium-quality formulation that can be supplied globally."



There are better oils available, but M1 seems to be good enough for these automakers and I don't see engines failing at all.

Quote:
The Mobil 1 0W-40 formulation has also been the oil of choice for Porsche's one-make cup series for the past ten years. ExxonMobil is also involved in Porsche's premier motorsports programme - the RS Spyder project. Since its launch in 2005, the Spyder has undergone continuous development in the American Le Mans Series (ALMS) - arguably the most competitive endurance racing series in the world. The RS Spyder made ALMS history last month finishing 1-2 overall at the Mid-Ohio round, becoming the first LMP2 class team to post such a result in the Series.
 
Terry also said to use Shell V-Power whenever possible. Fuel is part of the oil demise issue. Once again, oil is blamed but is not the cause of the issue.

I am going to follow this recommendation.

The break-in was nothing specific, just normal driving as if the car was already broken in.

aehaas
 
Buster, you're great at quoting marketing fluff. All good oils are very effective at absorbing and suspending the impurities. That's what dispersants do.

Mobil 1 is not the only oil approved by Porsche. Here is the latest list. All of them meet Porsche warranty requirements.

Porsche Approved Oil List

As for oil, the ALMS Penske Porsches do use specially formulated Mobil 1 oil. The Audi R8 team, with the largest win record in history, along with the Diesel R10 team, uses specially formulated Shell oils. So what! They both bear little relationship to the street oils.
 
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RI, marketing fluff isn't exclusive to just M1. Not all oils are good at suspending impurities.

Yes, I do tend to follow the endorsements as I think they mean something.
 
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
The rings are not seated and fuel dilution is high, a cause for elevated phosphorous.

I didn't think about this.
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Basically he said to get the oil out ASAP. I shall do this ASAP.

Good to see folks following through with Terry's recommendations.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
RI, marketing fluff isn't exclusive to just M1. Not all oils are good at suspending impurities.

Yes, I do tend to follow the endorsements as I think they mean something.



Of course marketing fluff isn't exclusive to M1. Every major oil brand has their own fluff. no matter what, it's still fluff designed to influence the uninformed masses.

You're right, not all oils are good at suspending impurities. But all of the oils on the Porsche approved list have the same capability as M1, as far as Porsche engineers are concerned. Otherwise they would not have made it through the approval process. For Mobil to reproduce those marketing statements regarding Porsche means that there were legal co-marketing agreements in place, which means $$$$$s.

If you look at the approved oil list, almost every one of them are identical to the Audi/VW 502 list. Why, because Porsche, VW, and Audi use the same engine design philosophy, perform similar sequence testing, and have to meet the same European requirements for long oil life.

In the illustrious approved oil list we have:

76 Pure Synthetic 5W40
Castrol Syntec 5W40
Castrol TXT 5W40
Havoline Ultra 5W40
Pentosin 5W40
Shell Helix Ultra 5W40
Mobil 1 0W40
Mobil 1 5W40
Fuchs Titan Supersyn 5W40
LubroMoly 5W40
Motul 8100 XCess 5W40
Quaker State European 5W40
Pennzoil European 5W40

Elf Excellium NF 5W40 is also approved

http://www.roadrunner-region-pca.org/Porsche_engine_oil_article.pdf

All of these oils meet the Porsche requirements for oxidation, cleanliness, wear protection, and sludge. All can make exactly the same claim as Mobil does.
 
Ok, so what is the problem then? Not sure I follow your logic. If it meets Porsche's specifications, what is the problem with these oils? They should all be of good quality, some better than others possibly.

Porsche also uses a lot of their own methods for evaluating wear. RI, I think you are taking oil analysis as the END ALL of oil testing and what I am saying is maybe there is more to it than this. Maybe a $50 UOA won't tell me much about deposits, sludge, varnish and particle size therefore leaving open the possiblity that an unknown oil approved maybe won't fullfill all of these requirements. ??
 
buster, I'm responding to your post #1136873 which glows about M1, and is out of place in this discussion. We're talking about a Bentley with a Volkswagen W12 engine, and wondering why if the oil is so cooked that they could recommend a 10K OCI. The answer in my mind is simple and is pure economics. Bentley is at no risk for engine failure within the warranty or extended warranty period. These cars are hardly ever driven.
 
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