Belt sander for sharpening?

Your experience on "polishing" materials like quartz is nowhere the same as grinding metal and not applicable as well as out of context with the premise of the thread. (I guess which is why the entire blade making industry grinds rather than uses belts even up to carbides and other hard materials) ( grinding in this context includes soft polishing wheels charged with abrasive)

Yes all roads have an ogive and molecular edges are a different animal but not the subject here so not a valid comparison.

They aren't tricks per se, they are techniques required depending on the angles/edge required and finishing process.
It's all about the bag of tricks garnered from experience that makes the difference. I have extensively, for decades worked with all kinds of materials, including all kinds of metals. The fused quartz knife edge I made was well received by the graduate student requesting it. She said it possibly was atomically sharp. It took at least 20 years of trick building to do that task. Someone just can't come in the door and do it, no matter what their sense of self ability is. Since resumes are the topic, what hands on experience have you had? Let's hear some examples of things you have made.. I told one , with a lot of detail down to the brand odf a machine.
One of the parts I like best on ths forum is hearing experienced people in mechanics divulge some of their learned tricks. This isn't a contest or a war here to see who knows more. I put as much value on the person in the auto shops career as the professor of engineering's career in a lab. Those highly educated professors have only really developed a bag of tricks others don't have. One person is no better than another, to me.
 
Since resumes are the topic, what hands on experience have you had? Let's hear some examples of things you have made.. I told one , with a lot of detail down to the brand odf a machine.

Certainly, just on knives alone and relating systems ( without violating NDA's, my client list and so forth) and experience from being a team member, EIT, PE, consultant over 40+ years...

My own hobby work of course and business in weapons/knives

Knives- all industrial knives and cutting instruments including hog knives, chippers, slitters, debarkers, shears, files, band Dopacko, Sunoco, IP< West and defunct ones ( Bowater, Willamette, Stone, Union Camp). Details from design, field testing, metallurgy, material selection, heat treatment, cold treatment, stamping, forging, edging, cutting, all machining operations ( cutting, turning, milling, grinding) and customer support in all areas.

Tooling design in partnership with Sandvik and Kenametal combined with design engineering and production set up for everything from injectors, bearings, spark plugs, weapons ( those that shoot) and numerous custom machines for paper, mining, pump and power transmission design.

That's the broad category list but hopefully answered your inquiry to your satisfaction. I understand your reasoning for asking as there are a lot of link quoters and keyboard experts who argue article points- I'm not one of them. Read most of my few posts here- I address from actual experience and real world scenarios, not regurgitating words from others trying to make them fit a given situation.

I see you do too- I respect that. Let us continue.

I too have partnered with Zeiss and learned tons from them and have a working knowledge of optics but far from a level of stand alone expertise which is why I pointed out that what you were saying was not applicable to the subject ( not in any way asserting the information you posted was wrong in any way- your comments about edge support were in fact quite accurate)
 
Certainly, just on knives alone and relating systems ( without violating NDA's, my client list and so forth) and experience from being a team member, EIT, PE, consultant over 40+ years...

My own hobby work of course and business in weapons/knives

Knives- all industrial knives and cutting instruments including hog knives, chippers, slitters, debarkers, shears, files, band Dopacko, Sunoco, IP< West and defunct ones ( Bowater, Willamette, Stone, Union Camp). Details from design, field testing, metallurgy, material selection, heat treatment, cold treatment, stamping, forging, edging, cutting, all machining operations ( cutting, turning, milling, grinding) and customer support in all areas.

Tooling design in partnership with Sandvik and Kenametal combined with design engineering and production set up for everything from injectors, bearings, spark plugs, weapons ( those that shoot) and numerous custom machines for paper, mining, pump and power transmission design.

That's the broad category list but hopefully answered your inquiry to your satisfaction. I understand your reasoning for asking as there are a lot of link quoters and keyboard experts who argue article points- I'm not one of them. Read most of my few posts here- I address from actual experience and real world scenarios, not regurgitating words from others trying to make them fit a given situation.

I see you do too- I respect that. Let us continue.

I too have partnered with Zeiss and learned tons from them and have a working knowledge of optics but far from a level of stand alone expertise which is why I pointed out that what you were saying was not applicable to the subject ( not in any way asserting the information you posted was wrong in any way- your comments about edge support were in fact quite accurate)
It's all good and everyone is as good as they need to be. Mr. Rogers and all that. Not serial killers and the like , they are no good. :p
It is possible to optically contact steel, "gage" blocks are made to do that. It would have to be kept in a steady temperature room or they would probably pop apart. A good optical contact in something like quartz actually can be strong enough that when separated the piece pulls a chunk out of the other piece rather than the bond break, That wouldn't happen with steel though, Optical contacting is somewhat of an art in practice. I doubt if I could prepare and contact steel now to hold well enough, maybe when in my forties. The fringes need to go staight off the edge with no curvature for the bond line to disappear during final polishing. Which I usually used pitch laps of my own recipe and fabrication. More tricks learned over years of trying different things. Removing the support pieces is a whole other issue which has to be resolved less the edge just break away.

I know it is beyond the topic and purpose of sharpening knives and such,. I still think the leather strop was found to have been the best thing. One of my grandfathers was a barber his whole life starting about 1905 as an apprentice. I am sure all those hands on years of shaving beards day in and day out gave him the feel to get a blade the sharpest attainable. Sort of like those Samurai sword masters, it can't be just walk in the door with a book and follow the instructions. The difference isn't in thinking about it but in the experience.
Too much talking but I'll let it stand not delete,
 
a blade the sharpest attainable.

In truth, the "edge" ( call it a combination of the blade width, primary and secondary angles and taper) is relative to what has to be cut. ( a ratio)
Its a ratio

Now with that, the "lifespan" of said edge is also a ratio because of heat generation, metal fatigue and hardness variances due to working of the steel. (basically defining "dullness" in terms of the reasons it got dull)

Strops, belts and so forth obviously "restore" edges ( reconditioning an angle) acceptable in most cases but the result is a short lasting edge ( have to keep doing it) because all its doing is honing an existing taper to something relatively close to what it was.

In the case of a belt sander the heat generated causes work hardening as it tapers so you may have a sharp edge but its weak and short lived.

So sharpest attainable is a somewhat moving target
 
In truth, the "edge" ( call it a combination of the blade width, primary and secondary angles and taper) is relative to what has to be cut. ( a ratio)
Its a ratio

Now with that, the "lifespan" of said edge is also a ratio because of heat generation, metal fatigue and hardness variances due to working of the steel. (basically defining "dullness" in terms of the reasons it got dull)

Strops, belts and so forth obviously "restore" edges ( reconditioning an angle) acceptable in most cases but the result is a short lasting edge ( have to keep doing it) because all its doing is honing an existing taper to something relatively close to what it was.

In the case of a belt sander the heat generated causes work hardening as it tapers so you may have a sharp edge but its weak and short lived.

So sharpest attainable is a somewhat moving target
I am more talking about master versus apprentice referring to best attainable. A master barber doesn’t need to know any of the details except what cuts the best. They don’t even have to read anything. So in Japan a blade is identified by it’s master and valued accordingly. I saw a show on tv about that. 😀
 
Knives I hand over to my father to sharpen. He was a butcher for many years, and when he's done with a knife you can shave with it. He uses the tried and true sharpening stone. For my mower blade I use a grinder. This thread has me thinking of giving my father a shot at it might not be a bad idea.
 
I am more talking about master versus apprentice referring to best attainable. A master barber doesn’t need to know any of the details except what cuts the best.

That's like saying the local butcher is the best candidate for Chief of Surgery because he cuts more meat.
 

Thanks for posting that article because its a textbook example of how and why "links" and articles should at best be read with a degree of skepticism because even though the abstract points in the article are generally somewhat correct, the author and to a degree the "expert source" regarding sharpening either don't know themselves or are promoting an agenda and product at the expense of accuracy.

As a baseline for data;

ALL machining generates heat and stress ( and often magnetism) in the work- knives are no different.

On the "roughing" side, whether its a laser cut with a HAZ (Heat Affected Zone), a mill ( metal fatigue from the cutter teeth) or a profile grinder ( heat) all form metal and induce factors into the part- its an unavoidable part of the physics of part making.

That's what heat/cold treatment is for ( peening etc.) which normalizes all those things and makes them whatever the design is.

Heat treating ALWAYS induces a degree of deformation and dimension change in every metal part and with things like edges there is post treatment finishing when needed because of that distortion ( grinding/polishing)- again normal, expected and routine ( and easily dealt with)

Those grinding/polishing operations almost universally are on precision machines with balanced wheels with precision angles taking cuts with MICRON sized depths per pass and they wither have FLOODED or high pressure INJECTED coolant. That means a cold part and no sparks and thus no metal change other than a microscopic amount of negligible work hardening. There are often thermal imagers looking for heat.

The article doesn't directly draw the distinction with a difference between a correctly designed manufacturing process and a hand held manual "eyeball" thing. ( and this is not to say small manufacturers don't use modern or even proper methods but they are not the accepted standard)

But notice the article uses "hand grinding" as the example but doesn't say if it was "free hand" or in a precision jig with coolant nor does it give either a pressure ( how hard the stone is against the work) or the speed of the feed or the depth of the grind.

It leave the reader with a false impression on grinding based on a series of comments LACKING ALL NECESSARY INFORMATION required to justify the comments in the first place. ( ask any machinist about what effect speeds, feeds, jigs have to do with finished produce and induced stresses)

Then the author talks about edge retention and all kinds of stuff.

The term "edge" is a descriptive term for a FUNCTION. The "edge" is an ANGLE (geometry) so you don't "sharpen an edge"- you recut an angle.

That's pointed out because "sharpness" is a marketing term and snake oil reference that cannot be defined in any measurable way as a constant- an angle can.

The author buries that point like a "mystery" as to why a "ground blade" which may be ""duller" on that "cut scale" has a higher rating. The answer is simple and known throughout industry.

Grinding ( when done properly) is a precision operation resulting in a precision angle (primary and secondary)- a belt is whatever you wind up with even changing overall angles and moving off center of the centerline. ( that's why one may get a "sharp" edge but it doesn't wear well or last long)

The author talks about drawing the blade for "sharpness values" ( whatever that is) but without an optical comparator, precision metrology equipment (GD&T) and even a profilometer to run the edge- you are just using a Rube Goldberg device to get a worthless value.

Even with a good edge, if the edge is not centered to the run datum and tapered to the run with proper surface profile ( offset or angles changed and maybe dips along the run of the angle or taper) then the edge life is going to be very short lived and will dull or break easily.

The authors attempt to put some "technobabble" in the end of the article to appear to sound "sciency" or give credibility is pretty useless because the end user in most cases doesn't have the awareness to ask such questions or the knowledge of what it means if he did know. All he wants to do is "go ginsu" on an overripe tomato.

The summary is misleading and should be specifically changed similar to... ( for accuracy)

Knife edges are easily overheated during powered grinding due to the small volume of the edge and the friction buildup from grinding.

Knife edges are easily overheated during powered grinding when done by a human hand and eye because proper grinding requires training and subject matter knowledge, correct balanced trued wheels, proper stone for the metal, proper rigid jig, and depending on feeds/speeds and grind depth- coolant as well to produce a quality finished edge.

This softens the edge and worsens edge retention.

Excessive grinding load combined with improper techniques affects the blade metallurgy/geometry in random ways resulting in an improperly angled or otherwise damaged edge which will have a very short service life. ( If you are grinding with a heat build up that softens hardened steel- you have worse problems)

The use of steels capable of high temperature tempering treatments help to some extent since they can withstand more heat.

This is ridiculous on its face. What exactly does it help and what extent does it?

Hand sharpening or water cooled sharpening are the best methods for preventing overheating of edges.

Hand sharpening ( without all the aforementioned criteria) is the FASTEST method to ENSURE overheating and improper angles for edges.

Again, this is why links and articles are at best read with a critical discerning eye and by themselves "prove" little to nothing and are often simply wrong. ( obviously not all but just because somethings written doesn't make it true, correct or directly applicable in a given situation)
 
That's like saying the local butcher is the best candidate for Chief of Surgery because he cuts more meat.
Makes no sense to me. meat cutters and surgeons are two completely different professions. Surgeons are masters, they have to go through a lot of training. Then we see some are renowned surgeons and some are regular old surgeons. Isaac Stern on the violin versus an excellent violinist in an orchestra.
 
Makes no sense to me. meat cutters and surgeons are two completely different professions. Surgeons are masters, they have to go through a lot of training. Then we see some are renowned surgeons and some are regular old surgeons. Isaac Stern on the violin versus an excellent violinist in an orchestra.

It should, its all hyperbole

For blade sharpening as a skill.....

First, define "best attainable" in terms of geometry because in the end, that's what defines "best" and then scopes out what is "attainable".

Then "apprentice" and "master" ( lets add journeyman too) can be defined on the trail from one to the other.

In context of my post you quoted- many things "feel right" and may even work ( perform the designed task) for a "little while" but that's a far cry from correct with the benefit that brings.

My entire consulting side on RCM is littered with claims and tales of "git er dun" until the costs go through the roof and I have to fix it. (then it costs even MORE money to fix it properly to get the expected life and reduce downtime)

Same thing here, its zero sum reasoning to say a blade "feels sharp" then takes a few cuts then has to be repeated again as opposed to properly restoring it for a full service life.

Now, in reality, the "manual method" is more than adequate for many tasks and for many home based uses- maybe some commercial too. Got that and don't dispute that.

That being said and true- that doesn't elevate the "manual method" to the level it can claim to be a standard on par with actually doing it correctly.
 
It should, its all hyperbole

For blade sharpening as a skill.....

First, define "best attainable" in terms of geometry because in the end, that's what defines "best" and then scopes out what is "attainable".

Then "apprentice" and "master" ( lets add journeyman too) can be defined on the trail from one to the other.

In context of my post you quoted- many things "feel right" and may even work ( perform the designed task) for a "little while" but that's a far cry from correct with the benefit that brings.

My entire consulting side on RCM is littered with claims and tales of "git er dun" until the costs go through the roof and I have to fix it. (then it costs even MORE money to fix it properly to get the expected life and reduce downtime)

Same thing here, its zero sum reasoning to say a blade "feels sharp" then takes a few cuts then has to be repeated again as opposed to properly restoring it for a full service life.

Now, in reality, the "manual method" is more than adequate for many tasks and for many home based uses- maybe some commercial too. Got that and don't dispute that.

That being said and true- that doesn't elevate the "manual method" to the level it can claim to be a standard on par with actually doing it correctly.
Not necessary to even be able to read, the results of someone day in and day out honing a blade will exceed any dream picture on paper. If they have the interest and talent. That was my whole point from the beginning, Samurai sword masters, master violinists, etc.
 
Not necessary to even be able to read, the results of someone day in and day out honing a blade will exceed any dream picture on paper. If they have the interest and talent. That was my whole point from the beginning, Samurai sword masters, master violinists, etc.

Romanticism aside, I can conditionally buy that to a degree. Even though not me, I know a few masters who can hand sharpen and grind tooling to gauge tolerance and stock makers who can freehand better than I can CNC. I do not dispute that at all. It is a dying art to turn a "concept" into a 3 dimensional reality.

That being said, they are very few and far between and even then when it comes to functionality, it still has to be done properly because time in service and repetitions of "doing it" alone are NOT an indicator of quality, skill, capability or functionality of the end product.

All the interest and talent in existence will not compensate for or negate a bad design or technique.
 
Back when,we bought our grandpa a drill press and grinding wheel from Sears in the late 80s. We used to put the fine wire brush wheel on and clean up the tools if they had dirt or rust on them. Then took kerosene or WD-40 and he wanted them covered to keep the rust away. Fun times
 
Romanticism aside, I can conditionally buy that to a degree. Even though not me, I know a few masters who can hand sharpen and grind tooling to gauge tolerance and stock makers who can freehand better than I can CNC. I do not dispute that at all. It is a dying art to turn a "concept" into a 3 dimensional reality.

That being said, they are very few and far between and even then when it comes to functionality, it still has to be done properly because time in service and repetitions of "doing it" alone are NOT an indicator of quality, skill, capability or functionality of the end product.

All the interest and talent in existence will not compensate for or negate a bad design or technique.
Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi, "wax on wax off" "paint the fence" "sand the floor" is actually very real. There is no substitute for experience. The master doesn't have to think, it's inside already. Today apprentices are not the norm. The topic was sharpening tools, not engineering a space shuttle.
I like to watch pelicans fly, stop in mid air, and dive. They are masters of flight. Baby pelicans can't do much of anything for awhile. The brain is the most amazing thing that exists I think.
 
I am far from an expert or even amateur lumberjack but like to keep my axe and hatchet sharp and ready for the next job. I use a stone and follow the method described at the link below. IMO a sander or flapwheel is fine for mower blades but not axes or knives.

Agree with that and thx for the info above pals. Stone doesn't work with mower blades to my mind or my arms are crooked
 
I also use the belt WorkSharp system. Honestly I wouldn’t use a regular belt sander for sharpening unless I could wire in a rheostat to turn down the rpm’s.

L8R,
Matt
 
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