Ball Joints

[Pop_Rivit]

An elderly friend of mine has a 1999 Dodge Dakota 4X4 with about 85,000 miles on it, and I often take care of it for him. Yesterday morning he brought it by the house with the complaint that it suddenly developed a vibration in the steering.

I looked at the front wheels and it was clear that a weight was missing from the left front (the dirt outline was still there but the weight was gone). I told him to swing by a tire shop and have them rebalance all 4 wheels.

He stopped back yesterday afternoon and said that the tire shop told him that "All 4 ball joints needed replaced, and both tie rod ends need replaced." John wanted to check with me first, and just had them balance the tires. The shop told him it wasn’t safe to drive, but finally balanced his tires and he left.

Red flags immediately went off when John told me-I replaced the tie rod ends just over a year ago for him, and I didn't see any indication of ball joint issues that that time. However, I took his Dakota out for a test drive and it steers normally, there is no clunking or noises in the front end, and it handles like I'd expect a 12 year old Dakota to handle. Balancing the wheels eliminated the vibration that he originally complained about.

I then pulled the Dakota into the shop and put the front end in the air. The tire wear is even and there is no noticeable play when grabbing each tire at the top and bottom and shaking. The tie rod ends are nice and tight and still look "new" compared to the rest of the front suspension.

I then dropped the front end back to the ground and had John move the steering wheel back and forth within the free play-again, no noticeable play in the ball joints. I put a pry bar on the ball joints and any movement was negligible.

I have a hunch that the tire shop needed some extra revenue this week and thought they found it, but before I confront them, are there any other indications of bad tie rod ends/ball joints that I missed? Anything else I need to check?

 

[Trav]

This may use loaded ball joints, to check them properly you need to relieve tension by jacking the lower control arm one side at a time then check with your pry bar.

 

[FL_Rob]

Call'em out!... don't let them( you know what) get away with jackin' your friend!and your business!

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Trav
This may use loaded ball joints, to check them properly you need to relieve tension by jacking the lower control arm one side at a time then check with your pry bar.


This! I'm not even sure you need the jack, just let it hang from the shock absorber.

Something like a 8 foot 2x4 lifting the tire will also work.

I wouldn't pick a fight with the tire company. It won't teach them anything and the poor shmuck trying to upsell is just following orders from above.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: Trav
This may use loaded ball joints, to check them properly you need to relieve tension by jacking the lower control arm one side at a time then check with your pry bar.


This.

 

[Jimmy9190]

There is a recall on ball joints on 4x4 Dakota's. I think the recall is for the upper ball joints only. Maybe check with the local Dodge dealer, give them the VIN and see if the truck is covered by the recall. Even if the dealer replaces the ball joints you need to keep a close eye on them because they will use Mopar non-greaseable replacement ball joints and those can fail early too.

The other replies on checking the ball joints are correct. Unless there is obvious damage or steering problems you need to jack up the control arm first and then check the ball joints for excess play. If you do the job yourself, the uppers are pressed in and the lowers are riveted in. Dodge does not replace or sell a replacement part for the lowers, they want you to replace the entire control arm as an assembly. This is not necessary, you can drill out the rivets and replace with greaseable, bolt-in quality parts from Moog, Napa Chassis, TRW, Raybestos etc. You can use a ball joint press and replace the uppers with new parts as well.

I agree with elefino, there is no sense in starting anything with the tire store. You won't get anywhere with them and life is too short for that kind of aggravation. Just check with the dealer about the recall and if the ball joints are bad, between you and the dealer it sounds like you can get the truck fixed.

Just my 2 cents on it. Good luck with it.

 

[WMSmotorhead]

When I had my car aligned, they showed me the bad ball joint... and then told me to fix it THEN get aligned. When the opinion is that the joint is bad, I want to see what they see when they make that diagnosis.

 

[Scorch]

Haha exact OPPOSITE situation for me. When I had 4 new struts put on in March I was told my ball-joints all looked "surprisingly good" and inspecting them myself I came to the same conclusion.

3 Months down the road the back left one drops out locking up the rear of the car and sending me into a spin. 2 rear upper control arm ball-joints and 4 new tires later...I will be replacing all ball joints at the same time I ever do struts again.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: Trav
This may use loaded ball joints, to check them properly you need to relieve tension by jacking the lower control arm one side at a time then check with your pry bar.


Right.

Backyard checks can be misleading. Who knows if there are parts that are loose? They don't seem to be dangerously loose.

 

[mattd]

as others have said, you need to check the ball joints properly (jack up @ lower control arm, with use of a long pry bar or 2x4). and also make sure when you check the tie rod ends, make sure the vehicle is in neutral, not park.

Also, just to clarify there are 4 tie rod ends. I assume you replaced outers? That is what most commonly fails on the dodge trucks, however, inners should be checked as well.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Friday afternoon we took the John's Dakota to another shop in a different town and paid for a front end inspection. As we thought, there is nothing wrong with either the ball joints or the tie rod ends.

This morning we decided to pay a visit to the tire shop that originally made the "diagnosis". After all, John's retired and I'm semi-retired, so we're just two old coots who have nothing better to do.

We walked in, armed with the receipt from Friday's check, and the gentleman with "Manager" on his shirt asked if he could help us. He was the same guy that told John his ball joints and tie rod ends were bad and I could tell he recognized John from the other day.

"What checks do you do to determine that tie rod ends and ball joints are bad?" I asked as laid on the counter a copy of the receipt that stated the front end was fine.

I could see him pale slightly as he replied "Most pickups more than 5 or 6 years old have bad ball joints and tie rod ends" he replied. "We automatically recommend they be replaced, especially 4 wheel drives." His voice trailed a bit as he became uncomfortable with his own answer and looked at the receipt.

I don't claim to be a mechanic, however I can usually tell when someone is blowing smoke up my britches, and few things irk me more than a liar or cheat.

"Did you recommend them for the Suburban that's getting new tires?" I asked, referring to the early 2000's Suburban getting new tires in one of the bays. I knew he couldn't lie, because I was pretty sure the owner was sitting in the waiting area, within earshot, listening. "How many pickups older than 5 or 6 years have you worked on this week" I asked, "And how many did you recommend ball joint and tie rod end replacements?" Mr. Manager tap danced around the questions, never really answering any of them. By this time he was starting to get really flustered and his face went from slightly pale to beet red, and John began needling him, asking how they made the diagnosis simply by driving his pickup from the parking spot in front of the shop into the bay, when the second shop spent almost half and hour looking it over.

After a couple minutes the manager offered to refund the amount John paid to get the tires balanced. John refused, since that was legitimate work that was needed and was performed. The manager, now clearly flustered and out of his league, wanted to know what he could do to settle the situation.

"I'd like an apology for trying to cheat me, and a promise you won't do it to anyone else" John replied. Since the waiting area with about 5 people is close to the service counter, everyone heard the entire conversation. Out of the corner of my eye I noticed people watching and smiling.

The manager sort of apologized, and said that it may have been a miscommunication, and that they'd review their procedures they use.

John and I then left, went to a coffee shop, had a cup of coffee and had a good laugh over it. Maybe, Mr. Manager will think twice the next time they try to cheat an elderly person (or anyone else).

 

[highmilegeguy]

I agree that its really not the fault of the working stiff on the floor.

In many cases, he gets alot of heat about hitting sales numbers and is instructed to upsell.....or else.

These guys are just trying to earn a living and forced, at threat to their next meal to lie, cheat and steal. You, unfortunately, did not direct your anger to the correct party. It was the unseen boss/owner who dictates shady practices.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: highmilegeguy
I agree that its really not the fault of the working stiff on the floor.

In many cases, he gets alot of heat about hitting sales numbers and is instructed to upsell.....or else.

These guys are just trying to earn a living and forced, at threat to their next meal to lie, cheat and steal. You, unfortunately, did not direct your anger to the correct party. It was the unseen boss/owner who dictates shady practices.


I have a very different set of values than you. I don't tolerate anyone who feels the need to cheat another person, even if they are a "working stiff". Claiming that they're a helpless "working stiff" and a victim themselves is nothing more than a cop out for an inexcusable act. If the "working stiff" actually had some personal values and morals he wouldn't be working for a company that doesn't share those values and morals.

The employee/manager wasn't a victim, he was a predator that tried to prey on an elderly gentleman to the tune of over $1000 in work that wasn't needed. He got caught trying to steal an elderly gentleman's hard earned retirement money, and maybe next time he'll think twice before he tries to steal again.

I'll never understand how you can defend a predator and thief, but I certainly can't and won't.

 

[salesmantony]

+1 to you Pop Rivit. The best way to get ahead in life is to treat everyone fairly (the old golden rule). If your boss wants you to lie and cheat, time to get a new boss.