Baffling electrical issue

[Cropduster172]

Some background...two story townhouse built in 1998, unfinished attic with blown in rock wool insulation, 200 amp service.
Have a pair of halogen gimbal spots on a sloped side of a 10' ceiling in the master bedroom. They are old work cans replaceable from the ceiling on a ladder. They didn't turn on one day from the switch located below. While I was somewhat skeptical that two halogen bulbs could burn out at the same time, it was the least expensive first step.
The existing bulbs looked fine... filaments intact. New bulbs didn't function either. Replaced the switch...no power to it before or after replacement... circuit breaker on.
Researched the existing gimbal spots from Seagull Lightning although no longer sold, I found the installation sheets...each had a transformer. I theorized they were wired in sequence and the transformer of the first one failed so both wouldn't work. Not wanting to attack this DIY from a 6' ladder , I called an electrician outfit I'd used several times before. Two guys came out and spent 2-3 hours trying to track down the problem. Discovered that the stairwell chandelier and spots weren't working as well as a ceiling fan in another bedroom. These guys couldn't fix it due to time and other scheduled jobs but told me they believed another line would have to be pulled home run from the panel up to the attic and to one of four junction boxes and another team would have to do it and it would be a lengthy process. They presented a $587 bill...the original estimate for replacing the two gimbals was $305.
I told them I didn't want to pay piecemeal and would pay when the job was completed entirely.
Two days later, we get 30-40 MPH wind gusts after a snow/ rain squall. I happen to show my son the problem and the lights in both rooms work suddenly , surprisingly and mysteriously enough. So that shoots their idea of replacing the feed home run to the attic down.
I think it's a loose connection inside one of the four junction boxes and these guys never climbed up into the attic to check as it's not easy crawling across ceiling joists arm deep in rock wool. I think there was enough wind movement to jostle Romex and reestablish a connection albeit temporarily within one of those junction boxes.
What do guys familiar with electrical think?
TIA

 

[mrsilv04]

If there was enough movement from a 40 mph wind gust to jostle Romex enough to re-establish a connection inside of a wire nut.... you'd feel your house moving when the wind blows.

Did anyone happen to verify that all of the lights were still inop when the electricians left?

 

[Pablo]

I got stuck at no power at the switch. You will need to find the break. You said other stuff not working as well? Just keep going back.

 

[Cropduster172]

If there was enough movement from a 40 mph wind gust to jostle Romex enough to re-establish a connection inside of a wire nut.... you'd feel your house moving when the wind blows.

Did anyone happen to verify that all of the lights were still inop when the electricians left?

Yes. The effected lights did not work after they left. And now they no longer work either. Do circuit breakers go bad as such to cause intermittent power loss to that circuit?

 

[Pablo]

Yes. The effected lights did not work after they left. And now they no longer work either. Do circuit breakers go bad as such to cause intermittent power loss to that circuit?

Yes have you turned breaker off then on ?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Something is weird. Lights don't get wired in series.

Are all these loads on the same breaker?

4 lights out at once points me to either a breaker or the run between the breaker panel and the first light - but romex doesn't "go bad" - so maybe it stops somewhere along the way? Anything else out - like a receptacle or? Start by checking everything in the vicinity. One of these can be helpful: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Power-Gear-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester-50542/206212329

 

[Rob_Roy]

You have a loose connection somewhere. I recently had to troubleshoot something like this and found a loose neutral in the panel.

If you are comfortable doing the work start at the panel and work your way through the circuit, checking all connections.

*With the age of your house it would be a good idea to snug all connections in the panel. It is good practice to do that every 10-15 years.

 

[Cropduster172]

Something is weird. Lights don't get wired in series.

Are all these loads on the same breaker?

4 lights out at once points me to either a breaker or the run between the breaker panel and the first light - but romex doesn't "go bad" - so maybe it stops somewhere along the way? Anything else out - like a receptacle or? Start by checking everything in the vicinity. One of these can be helpful: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Power-Gear-3-Wire-Receptacle-Tester-50542/206212329

The electrician had one of those and checked the outlets along the run...they were ok.
I'm starting to suspect the breaker. The electrician dudes think it's the run...but as you said, Romex doesn't go bad and if the effected lights worked briefly yesterday, how can the run be bad. I'm starting to believe it's an issue at the panel. There are no outlets in between that are effected. It's a Murray panel which I believe is now Siemens...a replacement Siemens single pole 15 amp breaker is $8 at Home Depot.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Yes. The effected lights did not work after they left. And now they no longer work either. Do circuit breakers go bad as such to cause intermittent power loss to that circuit?

Yes breakers can fail. I assume the electricians checked that, or swapped it, but I guess never assume?

 

[facility1]

sounds like a bad breaker,,and or check all wire nut connections related to the fixtures as a neutral maybe loose some where or a break in the line from panel,,romex can and very rarely can break/open, sometimes near a connection.

 

[Pablo]

No offense but the hired dudes sound like Heckle and Jeckle. For $500, maybe if they found the cause. How many hours were they there?

 

[Cropduster172]

Yes breakers can fail. I assume the electricians checked that, or swapped it, but I guess never assume?

No. I don't think they opened the panel plate. They only checked to what if any were tripped. So a bad breaker or loose buss connection is entirely possible.The panel is inside the garage about 18 inches from one of the garage doors. And we did have some flickering lights two weeks ago or so upstairs...can't remember if it those spots but very well could have been.

 

[Cropduster172]

No offense but the hired dudes sound like Heckle and Jeckle. For $500, maybe if they found the cause. How many hours were they there?

Well it's the $305 quoted plus their 2 hours with 2 guys who really diagnosed nothing or incorrectly at best. Still not worth $275 or so but I'll take that up with their office. I do believe what they told me about sloppy original electrical work in this house. Home builders skimp on something in all developments...at least that's my experience...drywall, electrical, plumbing usually not framing. Places were were framed by Amish. I say this because it's the 3rd electrical issue we've had in 4 years.

 

[eljefino]

You've got a loose connection and arcing, hence the flickering. When it arcs, it oxidizes/ burns the connection and adds resistance so it doesn't work. A good place to find it is at or upstream of the last known working doohickey in the circuit. These connections won't be just anywhere; they'll be in boxes behind switches or outlets, appearing related or unrelated to the circuit affected.

 

[Cropduster172]

You've got a loose connection and arcing, hence the flickering. When it arcs, it oxidizes/ burns the connection and adds resistance so it doesn't work. A good place to find it is at or upstream of the last known working doohickey in the circuit. These connections won't be just anywhere; they'll be in boxes behind switches or outlets, appearing related or unrelated to the circuit affected.

I'm not sure these guys checked if the breaker or connection to the buss was good...that's being looked into now. The guy that runs the outfit said it's either just fix the problem with a new run, or spend T&M to chase it down. He's thinking the new run is the quicker, cheaper way to go.

 

[mk378]

Do you know which breaker it is? Turn breaker off then check the whole house for anything else additional that stopped working (because it is also on that circuit, but wired closer to the breaker box than the problem lights). The problem connection then would be at one of those switches or lights where the circuit branches off.

Yes breakers commonly go bad in a way that they seem to click on and off normally, but with the lever in the "on" position, the circuit remains dead.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I had all kinds of problems that two electricians and the power company could NOT pinpoint. I was dropping one leg of the 240 and had flickering lights and deep brown outs. The power co even pulled new lines from the transformer on the pole and redid the mast tie ins.

Well, one night the power went out. I went outside, wiggled the meter and the power came back on. It appears when the power co installed a new meter for remote reading years earlier, the blade contact was not adequate due to age. It was heating and arcing on the meter contacts in the meter socket/ This connection should be like MIL SPEC robust. I have lost faith. Had a new meter socket and mast install for a bit under two grand. Yowsa!

Should be easy to check the power post-breaker in the load center. Maybe put a chart recorder on it. The mains breaker can get toasted contact points also is there is arcing and the breaker is exercised often with the circuits on. I could use a new mains breaker but my load center is ancient and nothing available. The Siemens part doesn't fit.

 

[Cropduster172]

Do you know which breaker it is? Turn breaker off then check the whole house for anything else additional that stopped working (because it is also on that circuit, but wired closer to the breaker box than the problem lights). The problem connection then would be at one of those switches or lights where the circuit branches off.

Yes breakers commonly go bad in a way that they seem to click on and off normally, but with the lever in the "on" position, the circuit remains dead.

That's a good suggestion... But the lights working briefly yesterday is a curve ball.

 

[mrsilv04]

Just swap it with another breaker of the same amperage. If the problem moves to the new circuit, then there's your problem. Then spend the $8 to replace it.

 

[Cropduster172]

Just swap it with another breaker of the same amperage. If the problem moves to the new circuit, then there's your problem. Then spend the $8 to replace it.

I know a bad breaker can cause lights to flicker and can repeatedly trip...but can it cause intermittent functionality?