B777 severe tail strike on take off from Milan.

Just a civilian pilot said:
Boeing aircraft are no better at withstanding severe tail strikes than any other aircraft.
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I didn't imply that they were. I was mainly thinking of how the media have recently portrayed Boeing aircraft as fragile and somehow substandard when I wrote that, not that Boeings were somehow better than Airbuses.




Just a civilian pilot said:
Boeing aircraft are no better at withstanding severe tail strikes than any other aircraft.

Very curious to see just how much damage was done ( and to the runway ).



As for the pilots, nothing should happen until an investigation is concluded and if it turns out to be their fault, which I bet it is, airlines have their own policy dealing with incidents/accidents. Gone are the days the chief pilot solely deals with issues like this. Pilot union and company safety people get involved and airlines try to learn from unintentional mistakes versus firing people.
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I didn't imply that Boeing aircraft are somehow better able to withstand a tail strike than any other aircraft. I was mainly thinking of the recent negative media portrayals of Boeing aircraft when I wrote that.

This is still a fairly young aircraft with low time for what it is and low cycles. I wonder whether or how much damage there is to the aft pressure bulkhead since that will play a roll in whether this 777 get repaired or scrapped for parts?

I have no idea how Latam handles this sort of issue with their crews. In many countries they'd simply be dismissed.
You can learn what went wrong here and still fire the crew. One doesn't depend upon the other.
 
fdcg27 said:
I didn't imply that they were. I was mainly thinking of how the media have recently portrayed Boeing aircraft as fragile and somehow substandard when I wrote that, not that Boeings were somehow better than Airbuses.





I didn't imply that Boeing aircraft are somehow better able to withstand a tail strike than any other aircraft. I was mainly thinking of the recent negative media portrayals of Boeing aircraft when I wrote that.

This is still a fairly young aircraft with low time for what it is and low cycles. I wonder whether or how much damage there is to the aft pressure bulkhead since that will play a roll in whether this 777 get repaired or scrapped for parts?

I have no idea how Latam handles this sort of issue with their crews. In many countries they'd simply be dismissed.
You can learn what went wrong here and still fire the crew. One doesn't depend upon the other.
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Actually, they do depend on each other, ultimately.

If you want to know what crews are doing wrong, and you want them to come forward, and disclose their mistakes, so that they can be analyzed and fixed through changes in training, standard operating procedure, or systems, then you have to have an open, honest, and just, safety culture.

Hammering every mistake. Punishing every mistake. Silences crews. It silences participation.

It creates an adversarial relationship in which the crews know there will be retribution for mistakes, so they do their best to hide them.

The airline will never learn what small mistakes are being made, until there’s a major crash.

Would it not be better, for a crew ,without fear of retribution or loss of their job, to be able to report that they had entered the zero fuel weight in the max weight line?

You could gather data on that. You could determine how many other crews have made the same mistake.

You could then modify your standard operating procedures, or put in place better systems, to prevent it ever reaching the result that we see in the video.

So, yes, a just safety culture, without fear of retribution or reprisal, is absolutely necessary to operate safely.

Not all Airlines have figured that out. Some have.

You want to fly on the ones that have.
 
fdcg27 said:
I didn't imply that they were. I was mainly thinking of how the media have recently portrayed Boeing aircraft as fragile and somehow substandard when I wrote that, not that Boeings were somehow better than Airbuses.





I didn't imply that Boeing aircraft are somehow better able to withstand a tail strike than any other aircraft. I was mainly thinking of the recent negative media portrayals of Boeing aircraft when I wrote that.

This is still a fairly young aircraft with low time for what it is and low cycles. I wonder whether or how much damage there is to the aft pressure bulkhead since that will play a roll in whether this 777 get repaired or scrapped for parts?

I have no idea how Latam handles this sort of issue with their crews. In many countries they'd simply be dismissed.
You can learn what went wrong here and still fire the crew. One doesn't depend upon the other.
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I was agreeing with you that you were not implying Boeing was better built than Airbus.

I hear what you are saying about the pilots but I don’t agree unless gross negligence is involved ( firing ) but I can agree that demoting the Captain temporarily might be appropriate depending on the circumstances.

Why fire an otherwise competent pilot because they made a mistake and firing them will NOT decrease the chances it never happens again.


More later on this ….just back from flying.

Time to eat.
 
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edyvw said:
Sorry guys, but you are all wrong.
This was not a tail strike. He was milling the runway to help with the future paving work.
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I thought it was just dirty or improperly constructed using interlocking stone or bricks?

Hopefully they can find stone masons or bricklayers soon or that runway will be closed for a long time ( only one available now ) .

I just checked out that airport, it has two, super long runways ( both are 12, 180 feet long ).

12,180 is a very long runway.
 
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Just a civilian pilot said:
I thought it was just dirty or improperly constructed using interlocking stone or bricks?

Hopefully they can find stone masons or bricklayers soon or that runway will be closed for a long time ( only one available now ) .

I just checked out that airport, it has two, super long runways ( both are 12, 180 feet long ).

12,180 is a very long runway.
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IDK, but they really dragged that thing down the runway. If ever, now is the time to put some new asphalt.
 
Kalle.J said:
The russians know how to use a runway. I mean it is not called takeoffway. 😁


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Russians, and videos like this, would be my very last choice in discussing safe flight operations.

If they had lost an engine on takeoff, every single one of those aircraft would’ve crashed.

There is a reason why Russian airlines crash at a rate of 10 to 20 times more often than European and North American.
 
Astro14 said:
Russians, and videos like this, would be my very last choice in discussing safe flight operations.

If they had lost an engine on takeoff, every single one of those aircraft would’ve crashed.

There is a reason why Russian airlines crash at a rate of 10 to 20 times more often than European and North American.
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If you have not fly on the Russian airplane, you don't know what is fear :)
 
edyvw said:
If you have not fly on the Russian airplane, you don't know what is fear :)
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I survived a relatively high risk youth, of off-road motorcycles, Whitewater slalom racing, and skiing.

I survived a relatively high risk profession.

I still ski. I still paddle. A bit of risk, that I manage, is still a part of my life.

But, I have absolutely no desire to put my life in the hands of inept practitioners of my profession. I would rather walk out of Russia than board a Russian airline.

For several reasons, both personal and professional, I will never visit Russia.
 
Astro14 said:
Actually, they do depend on each other, ultimately.

If you want to know what crews are doing wrong, and you want them to come forward, and disclose their mistakes, so that they can be analyzed and fixed through changes in training, standard operating procedure, or systems, then you have to have an open, honest, and just, safety culture.

Hammering every mistake. Punishing every mistake. Silences crews. It silences participation.

It creates an adversarial relationship in which the crews know there will be retribution for mistakes, so they do their best to hide them.

The airline will never learn what small mistakes are being made, until there’s a major crash.

Would it not be better, for a crew ,without fear of retribution or loss of their job, to be able to report that they had entered the zero fuel weight in the max weight line?

You could gather data on that. You could determine how many other crews have made the same mistake.

You could then modify your standard operating procedures, or put in place better systems, to prevent it ever reaching the result that we see in the video.

So, yes, a just safety culture, without fear of retribution or reprisal, is absolutely necessary to operate safely.

Not all Airlines have figured that out. Some have.

You want to fly on the ones that have.
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A very good point and you as a player in the industry would know far better than I.
 
Can the pilot operating an airliner tell if the weight or some other calc is wrong when applying power? Seat of the pants type of feeling?
 
Let’s put it this way. I have never read about pilots rejecting the take off because they felt there was something wrong with the acceleration.

I have only read about pilots realizing something was wrong when they went to rotate and scraped the tail.

If they felt there was something wrong, why wait until Vr?

I think the Emirates A340 crew might have applied full thrust before they tried to rotate after realizing something was very wrong.

Personally, depending on the runway ( obstacles ) , if I was accelerating down the runway and strongly felt the acceleration was off, I would stop. Same with problems during rotation. I don’t care what be V1 was. I would rather go off the end, at a slower speed, than stagger off the runway and collide with some obstacles. Depends on what I see at the end of the runway.

Situational awareness also. Some runways have EMAS at the end if the runways, some don’t. I check when I review the airport.

The Emirates and LATAM flights were very lucky nothing significant was close to the end of the runway.

Until Airbus and Boeing come up with a procedure ( there never will be any ) that tells pilots what to do when realizing they have screwed up the independent take off weight performance ( fails to lift off after rotation ) , that’s my policy.
 
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Astro14 said:
I survived a relatively high risk youth, of off-road motorcycles, Whitewater slalom racing, and skiing.

I survived a relatively high risk profession.

I still ski. I still paddle. A bit of risk, that I manage, is still a part of my life.

But, I have absolutely no desire to put my life in the hands of inept practitioners of my profession. I would rather walk out of Russia than board a Russian airline.

For several reasons, both personal and professional, I will never visit Russia.
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I never chose to fly on their airplanes, but sometimes, Russian-made airplanes were the only way out of the place where I did not have the desire to stay.
It is out of body experience 😂
 
Astro14 said:
Actually, they do depend on each other, ultimately.

If you want to know what crews are doing wrong, and you want them to come forward, and disclose their mistakes, so that they can be analyzed and fixed through changes in training, standard operating procedure, or systems, then you have to have an open, honest, and just, safety culture.

Hammering every mistake. Punishing every mistake. Silences crews. It silences participation.

It creates an adversarial relationship in which the crews know there will be retribution for mistakes, so they do their best to hide them.

The airline will never learn what small mistakes are being made, until there’s a major crash.

Would it not be better, for a crew ,without fear of retribution or loss of their job, to be able to report that they had entered the zero fuel weight in the max weight line?

You could gather data on that. You could determine how many other crews have made the same mistake.

You could then modify your standard operating procedures, or put in place better systems, to prevent it ever reaching the result that we see in the video.

So, yes, a just safety culture, without fear of retribution or reprisal, is absolutely necessary to operate safely.

Not all Airlines have figured that out. Some have.

You want to fly on the ones that have.
Click to expand...
There is a similiar concept in the IT industry. After an outage/incident/fault, a root cause analysys should be carried out, and it needs to be undertaken with an approach to determine what happened, why it happened, and how to avoid it in the future. Sometimes, as in aviation, it is as simple as human error or an ambiguous procedure. An open and honest approach to find the problem and then adjust to prevent it happening in the future is the best way to do it.

If a finger pointing or blame game approach is taken, people will naturally try to cover themselves, or not front up. Result is root cause misidentified or not all information is obtained.

I've worked in both styles and the former was much more effective, with people that have had an issue as a result of their own error openly admitting what happened and why, and also coming up with ways to prevent it and then wanting to actually implement those preventative measures.
 
Italian Civil Aviation Safety Investigation Authority preliminary report is out.

They rotated 149 knots when the correct Vr rotation speed was 181 knots, plus they didn't use the correct take off power.

3 Captains in the cockpit.

The Aviation Herald has parts of the report on its website.
 
Just a civilian pilot said:
Italian Civil Aviation Safety Investigation Authority preliminary report is out.

They rotated 149 knots when the correct Vr rotation speed was 181 knots, plus they didn't use the correct take off power.

3 Captains in the cockpit.

The Aviation Herald has parts of the report on its website.
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Which supports my theory about incorrect calculation. An old mistake, which has been made many times.

Wrong thrust. Wrong speeds.

The result of a wrong entry in the FMC?

I’ll be interested in the final report.
 
I can see that happening very easily unless careful not to cross check with the flight plan ( why is the TOW much lighter than the FP estimated TOW given the same fuel and number of passengers? ). It will happen again.
 
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