Attacks on the power grid - generator required

[1 FMF]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
A week long power outage in major metropolitan cities will cause wide spread rioting and looting.


Yeah. I'd be packing up and heading up to my parents or something if there was a week long power outage here.



Yeah, here too....wouldn't expect much to come back to either.....


I live in a nice neighborhood, but it borders the worst in the city.

We're actually aiming to become a mini-Detroit!


this topic would be better off under the firearms section,
generator won't do you no good once it gets taken away.

 

[Donald]

Mine will be bolted to a slab with no wheels. And its propane. I am in the country with a small pack of Mastiffs.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: 1 FMF
this topic would be better off under the firearms section,
generator won't do you no good once it gets taken away.


Maybe it should be posted under the theft section. Where is the BITOG theft section.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: 1 FMF
this topic would be better off under the firearms section,
generator won't do you no good once it gets taken away.


Maybe it should be posted under the theft section. Where is the BITOG theft section.


Unfortunately it was stolen!

 

[niero]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
We're actually aiming to become a mini-Detroit!


Out of curiosity, do you mean Flint, MI? (aka Little Detroit.)

 

[Lubener]

I think I will hide under my bed.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Being able to mooch off one's larger fuel tanks (bottled propane for stove, or 275 gal #2 heating oil (diesel)) will have its bonusses.

However, my being able to tap my car's fuel rail means I can top it off in an environment of "no gas cans". I even have some old even/odd numbered license plates hanging around in case they ration even/odd days.

I want to convert the generator to propane. But I like the idea of tapping into the fuel rail on a car. I even have the fittings.

I do too-a 6 foot piece of hose! Or if that fails, a screwdriver, hammer, & drain pan!

 

[JimPghPA]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: 1 FMF
this topic would be better off under the firearms section,
generator won't do you no good once it gets taken away.


Maybe it should be posted under the theft section. Where is the BITOG theft section.


Or the poor english grammar section.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
The NY Times has lost a lot of credibility in recent years, and is far from unbiased reporting.

You have to keep in mind that they're not differentiating organized, intelligent, targeted attacks from the idiot down the street getting drunk again and taking out his frustrations on the nearby power pole transformer. Remember, there are a lot of drunk idiots out there.

We don't need to generally concern ourselves with the activities of the drunk idiots--it's the serious, organized targeted attacks that are cause for concern.

Is a generator a good thing to have on hand? Absolutely. Just don't go blowing your life savings on survival equipment just because some idiot writing for the NY Times is trying to breed fear and uncertainty.


The attack on the substation near me was done by a number of automatic weapons and was viewed as planned and coordinated by law enforcement. These weren't yahoos. No real security or physical upgrade was done after this incident occurred other than adding one or two security people who didn't challenge a tested breach of the area a few months later. My guess is this could be replicated in many if not most areas of the U.S. They need preventative action if there's ever a coordinated attack where 50 or more substations / power plants are attacked simultaneously. Unfortunately, they won't learn that until it actually happens and people on here will start whining and turn it into some red state / blue state bull****. The takeaway is that most utilities are unprepared for these incidents and it should be part of their business plan. The same holds true for the possibility of an EMP strike. They can defuse the damage that would ensue to some degree but they'll probably just want to add a security guard and an extra CCTV unit and all's well. If that's the case, we deserve it.

 

[ironman_gq]

20kW genset here, runs of a 200gal propane tank which should be enough for at least a week under normal use. If it runs out there's a 500gal close enough to make work and access to a lot of smaller cylinders.

I'm really not too worried about it, I can manage just fine without power for the better part of the year.

 

[Cujet]

Practical advice

340-390cc Honda Subaru Yamaha powered, open frame genset. Store it inside the garage where it is safe from degredation and theft. Choose by engine displacement. A 3600 rpm engine will only make so much power. Tati Gs are often very misleading.

Configure your home to accept generator power with a transfer breaker.

This size can heat water or run fridge and well pump without trouble.

 

[dlundblad]

As much as I love diesels, I feel LPG is the answer. The smaller the better IMO. I'd want something to run the basics.. not the entire house. Water pump/ heater, heat, fridge/freezer, a few outlets, etc.

To my knowledge, propane doesn't get old so you can have a 500 gallon tank on reserve at all times. And as mentioned above, you can run a line to something else if needed.

In order to keep a decent amount of propane on hand, I would ditch the propane powered water heater if you have one. During the propane spike last winter, I am pretty sure we wouldnt have made it though without getting refilled if it wasnt for the electric water heater (and space heaters).

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad
As much as I love diesels, I feel LPG is the answer. The smaller the better IMO.


Propane is an excellent fuel. However, it contains 91,000 BTU, far less than diesel, and well less than gasoline.

This results in
1) considerably higher fuel consumption,
2) lower specific output due to fuel being a vapor (displaces some air) and very high octane is not effectively used by low compression engines)
3) Propane evaporation limitations on fuel delivery rate, (cold weather and during periods of high consumption)

Don't even think that a 17 pound BBQ tank will run a 5500W generator at load, or for long. In fact, 2ea BBQ tanks won't do it. The fuel gets cold and stops evaporating. FYI, 2BBQ tanks are equivalent to 5 gal gasoline or 3.5 gallons diesel fuel with regard to real world run time at load.

Propane is a fantastic fuel, and has many advantages. But, it's difficult to get in an emergency, gets consumed quickly and has limitations that MUST be accounted for.

With all that in mind, if you have a large propane tank, and size your genset properly, it's a very effective, clean, long life system. As mentioned above, the fuel never goes bad. And, for that matter, neither do the engines run on propane...

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: Vuflanovsky
Originally Posted By: AlaskaMike
The NY Times has lost a lot of credibility in recent years, and is far from unbiased reporting.

You have to keep in mind that they're not differentiating organized, intelligent, targeted attacks from the idiot down the street getting drunk again and taking out his frustrations on the nearby power pole transformer. Remember, there are a lot of drunk idiots out there.

We don't need to generally concern ourselves with the activities of the drunk idiots--it's the serious, organized targeted attacks that are cause for concern.

Is a generator a good thing to have on hand? Absolutely. Just don't go blowing your life savings on survival equipment just because some idiot writing for the NY Times is trying to breed fear and uncertainty.


The attack on the substation near me was done by a number of automatic weapons and was viewed as planned and coordinated by law enforcement. These weren't yahoos. No real security or physical upgrade was done after this incident occurred other than adding one or two security people who didn't challenge a tested breach of the area a few months later. My guess is this could be replicated in many if not most areas of the U.S. They need preventative action if there's ever a coordinated attack where 50 or more substations / power plants are attacked simultaneously. Unfortunately, they won't learn that until it actually happens and people on here will start whining and turn it into some red state / blue state bull****. The takeaway is that most utilities are unprepared for these incidents and it should be part of their business plan. The same holds true for the possibility of an EMP strike. They can defuse the damage that would ensue to some degree but they'll probably just want to add a security guard and an extra CCTV unit and all's well. If that's the case, we deserve it.


Was this the one where they cut some fiber optic cables first and then used weapons?

If there is anything a tad positive, is these instances where they use weapons they are shooting at transformers, etc, not electric company workers.

 

[JHZR2]

A chain thrown across two phases at a substation could take it down.

But fault protection is built in.

And the grid has a,lot of distributed inertia. Plus, power plants would have some manual overrides.

Not playing ostrich here though, the chance of attack is very real, and the situation could be bad. But keep in mind that unlike after natural disasters, in case of a hack event, there will still be some redundancy at local levels that will allow for recovery.

I have a straightforward way to isolate the water system in my home, so if there ever was an issue, I could drain the pipes and not worry about freezing. The hydronic heat is more of an issue, but by the time that water and NG was depleted, I could have taken other proactive measures.

So the key is the ability to store food for a while, to camp, and to power a refrigerator or furnace/boiler circulator. AC is entirely optional. Lots of ways to get through.

And if I was in a situation where things got rough, no way I'd be running a big,l loud, high kW genset anyway, low profile, small, quiet generation in a sound deadening box, and fit in to look the part with the worst of the worst off, even if well prepared.

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ


I want to convert the generator to propane. But I like the idea of tapping into the fuel rail on a car. I even have the fittings.

That's the way I look at it. Before a hurricane warning all of the cars get gassed to the gills just in case. I have the option of evac or riding it out with 60+ gallons of fuel.

I also got a natural gas conversion kit for my 5KW generator (paranoia and extra cash). Works great and just another redundancy for a what if moment.

One of my clients lives about 5 miles outside of town and has a 20KW propane powered setup. It has a dedicated 500 gallon tank, and can also pull from the other 250 gallon tank that is for the house (heating/cooking).

I have 3 generators. Paranoia. You honestly should have at least a weeks worth of water and food at all times. You just never know. Oh, and ammo, lots of ammo.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
As much as I love diesels, I feel LPG is the answer. The smaller the better IMO.


Propane is an excellent fuel. However, it contains 91,000 BTU, far less than diesel, and well less than gasoline.

This results in
1) considerably higher fuel consumption,
2) lower specific output due to fuel being a vapor (displaces some air) and very high octane is not effectively used by low compression engines)
3) Propane evaporation limitations on fuel delivery rate, (cold weather and during periods of high consumption)

Don't even think that a 17 pound BBQ tank will run a 5500W generator at load, or for long. In fact, 2ea BBQ tanks won't do it. The fuel gets cold and stops evaporating. FYI, 2BBQ tanks are equivalent to 5 gal gasoline or 3.5 gallons diesel fuel with regard to real world run time at load.

Propane is a fantastic fuel, and has many advantages. But, it's difficult to get in an emergency, gets consumed quickly and has limitations that MUST be accounted for.

With all that in mind, if you have a large propane tank, and size your genset properly, it's a very effective, clean, long life system. As mentioned above, the fuel never goes bad. And, for that matter, neither do the engines run on propane...


So propane is a double edged sword then? Lol.

You mentioned some good points. I was completely oblivious to the BTU's too.

If consumption was that high, I would worry about using up all my fuel and not being able to get more (as you said.) and being without power and heat. Diesel or gas would just be a few towns away at the worst.

A generator that mounts on the back of a tractor seems interesting. I would think it'd be plenty powerful and as my dad says, it'd be one less engine to change the oil on. This goes against BITOG rules though. Lol.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: dlundblad


So propane is a double edged sword then? Lol.

You mentioned some good points. I was completely oblivious to the BTU's too.

If consumption was that high, I would worry about using up all my fuel and not being able to get more (as you said.) and being without power and heat. Diesel or gas would just be a few towns away at the worst.

A generator that mounts on the back of a tractor seems interesting. I would think it'd be plenty powerful and as my dad says, it'd be one less engine to change the oil on. This goes against BITOG rules though. Lol.


My propane tank holds 400 gallons when full. They have 800 gallon tanks too. I don't think any electricity is needed for the propane trucks to fill and deliver.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: dlundblad


So propane is a double edged sword then? Lol.

You mentioned some good points. I was completely oblivious to the BTU's too.

If consumption was that high, I would worry about using up all my fuel and not being able to get more (as you said.) and being without power and heat. Diesel or gas would just be a few towns away at the worst.

A generator that mounts on the back of a tractor seems interesting. I would think it'd be plenty powerful and as my dad says, it'd be one less engine to change the oil on. This goes against BITOG rules though. Lol.


My propane tank holds 400 gallons when full. They have 800 gallon tanks too. I don't think any electricity is needed for the propane trucks to fill and deliver.


I have a 250 gal propane tank. It's real capacity is 200 gallons. In fact, the most I've ever been able to squeeze into that tank is 197 gallons. That's functionally equivalent to 100 gallons of diesel. (same electrical generation capacity) That's because the diesel engine is more efficient and diesel fuel contains more energy. A 5500W gasoline generator will consume about 15 gal/day, 24/7. It's propane variant about 20 gal/day.

In other words, my 250 gal tank (real world capacity 200) is good for 10 days of 24/7 operation, if full.

A 400 or 500 gallon tank makes a lot more sense with a big propane generator, such as a 20KW genset.

The big tank takes the worry out of needing immediate refills. After the hurricanes here in S. FL, propane delivery was measured in months.

 

[SHOZ]

Yes they only fill propane tanks to 80%. 500 gallon tank is filled at 400 gallons.