Are all Auto trans computer controlled?

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That's likely because the maintenance schedules in the owner's manual for the transmission are adequate to make it last for "long enough", whatever that happens to be, but those who want it to last longer would do well to ditch the manual recommendations.

Agreed ..but we don't have to ditch the owners manual to get an engine to last 200k do we?? In todays engines ..I'd say that any problems encountered ..are because the owner never read it and never followed it.

This "engine vs. trans" longevity thing may be more due to the focus on emissions that has engineered out most of the destructive elements in its use ..while the auto was more of a utility to achieve certain "false" effiencies.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Agreed ..but we don't have to ditch the owners manual to get an engine to last 200k do we??

You do if it's one of those sludgemonster engines.

EDIT: I think most of the problems with present-day automatics are due to inadequate cooling combined with inadequate fluid changes. (Heat makes transmission fluid break down).

I'd like to do some testing, but the only automatic vehicle I have access to is a 2005 Ford Escape which has an OBD-II port that speaks the new CAN protocol and won't talk to my scantool. Otherwise, I'd watch the transmission fluid temperature while driving it in stop-and-go traffic. The results might be interesting.

[ December 09, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]
 
The 545RFE is a great transmission. Compared to what I've driven, its awesome. My friend's Hemi Ram is fantastic, well at least in terms of shift quality. When he wants power, it shifts smoothly and give it to him. He likes how it drives. I have been in a 02 Grand Cherokee and 04 Hemi Ram with the transmission. I have yet to drive either. I will soon. Little sis is getting a 02 V8 Grand Cherokee for her b-day (today but its gonna be belated til I go home and test drive the one they want since I'm the Jeep expert) so I'll see how it feels then.

Drive my 42RE, then you might change your mind. It's the weakest point in the drivetrain. I've adjusted to how it works. It's not adaptive.

The worst, 2000 Ford Windstar. If you do WOT, it waits 2 seconds before it shifts. It's like the JeepsUnlimited server, it has a hamster wheel for a brain and it takes its time. The overdrive will kick in at 35-40!!! It's about as good as my friend's 1989 Mitsubishi Mighty Max pickup truck's 4-speed with 200K miles. I know in 2001 they changed the transmission in the Windstar...We had a rental when someone rearended our 2000.
 
quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:
You do if it's one of those sludgemonster engines.

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Someone's a Toyota hater. You seriously need to own the product before you bash it. 2002 Toyota Avalon XLS, 42K miles, 3K OCIs, Castrol GTX, Toyota Filter, NO SLUDGE ON A "SLUDGEMONSTER" ENGINE!!!
 
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Originally posted by JeepZJ4.0:
3K OCIs

Doesn't the manual say 7.5K OCIs are acceptable for non-severe use? Won't sludge result if that recommendation is followed?

Not hating, just pointing out that the manual has inadequate maintenance recommendations for that engine.

Now if I were hating, I'd point out that other automakers have similar engines with similar HP and displacment that don't have sludge problems, and I would've mentioned Toyota by name, because Chrysler has a sludgemonster engine too.
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quote:

Originally posted by brianl703:
Doesn't the manual say 7.5K OCIs are acceptable for non-severe use? Won't sludge result if that recommendation is followed?

That's true but we don't fall into the non-severe use. It still says 5K but my father is set on 3K intervals that he's always done, even before I was born. I'm not saying sludge will result at 7.5K. My father has the letter from Toyota about the matter at home. Enough about sludge, one more final and I'm home.

Yes, you would have mentioned Toyota as a hater but in the other thread, you mentioned it being a sludgemonter when I suggested you drive a Toyota. Yea, Chrysler has one too. But that's really for owners who abuse the engine.
 
quote:

Originally posted by JeepZJ4.0:
That's true but we don't fall into the non-severe use.

My whole point was that inadequate service intervals specified by the manual have resulted in engine problems, just as they have resulted in transmission problems.

Sorry if you took that as a slam towards Toyota.
 
quote:

Originally posted by JeepZJ4.0:
Yes, you would have mentioned Toyota as a hater but in the other thread

That's in another thread.

This thread...and that thread.

Two different threads..with (before you got all offended, anyway) two different topics.

EDIT: In the other thread, we were talking about the hypothetical purchase of a hypothetical used Toyota Avalon. In that case, the propensity of the engine to sludge due to inadequate oil change intervals is of special concern because many people, perhaps the hypothetical former owner of that hypothetical car, do not pay much attention to maintenance.

[ December 09, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: brianl703 ]
 
well, we followed the book and sometimes bettered it on the Chryslers....and the trans were still junk long before the rest of the car (minivan) was worn out.

Saying that a dead trans died for lack of maintenance only is one of those generalizations again......there are some true boatanchors out there and no amount of maintenance is going to fix a bad design.
 
Gary I guess my experience has been much different however most of it is newer.

I've never had an automatic transmission fail or known of a family member or close friend that had one fail. However I've seen lots of engines and several clutches go. I'd say maintenance varied but it was always favoring the engine.

My friend for instance has had 3 engines and 1 clutch fail, he's owned equal parts autos and manuals and drives them all the same.

-T
 
Dodge has made some lousy transmissions over the years but the one in my truck the 54rfe, is good and very smooth. Some like it better then the GM transmissions. I guess I just prefer having control over the gearing changing. I've also never read anywhere that Manuals are less reliable then autos. It's the other way around I believe.
 
quote:

Originally posted by buster:
I've also never read anywhere that Manuals are less reliable then autos. It's the other way around I believe.

Manuals are much less forgiving then automatics in that someone who doesn't know what they're doing can burn out a clutch and ruin synchros in just a few thousand miles of driving.

So I can see where someone mught have come to that conclusion.
 
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Ford vehicles with computer-controlled transmissions retard the engine spark timing during shifts.

In theory at least, this should result in increased transmission life.

Then why do so many end up in the junkyard with fully function and road worthy engines ...with disabled transmission? Perhaps because of the ultra sophistication they are too expensive to repair? Now the energy that was put into their manufacture is now wasted, when it could have continued on for 10 more years.

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One should also note that these new 'automatic' transmissions are almost completely lossless, and the MPG ratings for these transmissions in fact exceed those of traditional manual transmission controlled vehicles as the computers are better able to provide an optimal level of control for better fuel economy than a human drive could with a clutch and shifter.

Can you show me the figures in SAE net on these "new breed" transmission to see how the output of the trans is in comparison to the flywheel of the engine? Can we then compare this to the "old breed" with its inherent losses? Can we then note the longevity and the engergy put into their manufacture ..and their cost in comparison to the operation of a cheaper, more reliable, and more durable component.


Please don't tell me that they exist on some upscale Euro trash that only .05% of the population own (visions of 6 speed paddle-shifters on road rally cars on Speedvision).

Automatic transmissions have evevolved for one reason and one reason only (by and large) for CAFE. The internals have remained basically the same as they were for 40 years with only the modality of application being altered. They have proven more often than not to be the NUMBER ONE reason for dicarding a perfectly functional vehicle.

They're junk ..err...junque.
 
a primary improvement for mileage purposes has been the torque converter lockup, this eliminates TC slip/loss at steady state driving. It is a huge reward for steady-footed drivers at highway speeds and an incentive to use the cruise control which allows the steady-state speed that it needs to be activated. It is not engaged by the cruise control in my experience, it operates independently.

You can actually see it haoppen if you have a tach. The engine RPM will drop with no corresponding speedo change when it engages. A slight press on the gas will cause the TC lockup to release, the engine RPM to jump but the speedo to registed a slow increase.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
I would offer that for about 25 years, the older autos required no maintenance. They virtually never failed before the car was junk. My 64 Old and a multitude of other sh0tboxes that I owned had automatics ..I flogged them and they never failed ..and never saw any service. Sure you could blow the auto up ...but you've got to consider that we are just now coming close to the hp that these older engines applied to these autos ..and almost NO WHERE near the torque for the vast motoring fleet that is on the road today.

Any 60's transmission is probably going to last longer than any transmission today. Why? They were all 2 and 3 speeds, and there was no concern for weight or efficiency. It's not really a mystery. People still look to these old transmissions to go behind their highly modified dragstrip cars (sometimes even street cars). Turbo 400 for GMs, 727 Torqueflite for Mopar, and C6 for Ford.

As for your HP comparison - cars back then didn't have as much HP as you think. Most of them, barring the rare factory hotrods, accomplished their work with the peak torque being delivered in the 2000rpm range, not high HP. Sure the gross HP ratings were high, but compared to today, they weren't powerful at all, especially for the displacement. I can cite examples and references if you don't believe me.
 
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As for your HP comparison - cars back then didn't have as much HP as you think. Most of them, barring the rare factory hotrods, accomplished their work with the peak torque being delivered in the 2000rpm range, not high HP. Sure the gross HP ratings were high, but compared to today, they weren't powerful at all, especially for the displacement. I can cite examples and references if you don't believe me.

Oh ..I truly believe you ..but if you can find a Eurotrash that puts out as much torque as the bottom of the line 383 2bbl (or 318 for that matter) and anything BUT some hiper current engine that can match the HP ..for more than a few exceptional engines ..that I'd like to see. Torque is torque sewing machine engines just don't produce much of it ..and how does hammering your drivetrain in the "off the line - 2000rpm" range possibly put less stress than something that has a toque peak that is somewhere in the stratusphere?? My 1961 318 2bbl (I believe) had around 180hp. The trans DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE to how many cubes are attached to it. It only knows torque and rpms (or torque applied over rpms).

Unless they've done away with the planetary gear set ...there has been NO advancment in technology of power transmission to the rear wheels ..only in the control of application. The lockup torque converter allowed them to compensate for pathetic performance ...and not have to pay for it in the heat of a high stall TC.

Two or three speeds? What's that got to do with anything? The more speeds merely, again, compensates for pathetic or narrow range power. It has nothing to do with stoutness or reliablity. The overdrive had been used in the 1960's Caddilac and performed it's function hydraulically ..and reliably and didn't require "fast learn" or the ability to measure the cc's of fluid for each application so it could compensate for the clutch wear.

Now if they've come up with a slushbox that compares to any of the afore mentioned transmissions (C4,C6, TH350, TH400, TF 904, TF727, FMX, and even the powerglide) in reliablity and strength ..then it's a recent creation (past few years). There are a ton of cars that would still be on the road if they had them ..that are now in the junkyard.

There have been success ..the AW4, and a few others ..but for the cars that the majority of the motoring public have bought ..the autotrans is a POS. Nothing terrifies an auto owner more than trouble with their automatic. A time bomb ticking in the back of your head that takes your 100k clean beater ..and turns it into junk.


Manuals ..unless it's of poor design ..then the operator is the problem. Anyone who can't learn to shift and shift properly ...shouldn't have one. If the wear is due to hammering it ..then it's part of the cost of driving that way. Auto's don't necessarily require you to do anything nasty to them to fail.
 
I drove the Jeep today. WOW! This thing shifts sooo smooth and it's very responsive. I can see where it may be a little unforgiving with the Hemi because it has more power to deal with compared to a 4.7L V8.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
The lockup torque converter allowed them to compensate for pathetic performance ...and not have to pay for it in the heat of a high stall TC.

I do believe that CAFE was a primary motivator for lockup torque convertors.

CAFE, for those who don't know, is a government program that is supposed to increase the fuel economy of vehicles on US roads by fining the automakers for not meeting the specified fuel economy.
 
quote:

I do believe that CAFE was a primary motivator for lockup torque convertors.

Yes and NO (big NO). The lock up tc is for HEAT REDUCTION. The higher the stall ...the more HEAT. Higher stall tc are employed in pathetically small power plants that need automatics in the US. This gives them more torque ..where they have none.

This is why the lockup has NOTHING to do with CAFE.

lockup tc ..3.73 gears .....rpm @ 70 mph = 3000
lockup tc unlocked 3.73 gears rpm @ 70 mph= 3200
nolockup tc 3.54 gears ...rpm @70 mph = 2800

How did the lockup provide any ecomomy that could not be compensated for by higher axle ratio? this has been a tecnique for 4 score.

The ADVANTAGE is that you can have high slippage high stall torque converters yet not suffer the excessive heat created by them.
 
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Manuals ..unless it's of poor design ..then the operator is the problem. Anyone who can't learn to shift and shift properly ...shouldn't have one. If the wear is due to hammering it ..then it's part of the cost of driving that way. Auto's don't necessarily require you to do anything nasty to them to fail.

Thing is, I never hear of manuals failing, only autos.
 
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