Any forgery experts here?

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Can we discuss this as a potential forgery and leave out the politics? The motivations to forge documents are obvious and need no discussion.

Son of Late Officer Questions Bush Memos

Is It a Hoax?

'60 Minutes' Documents Might Be Fake

Anyone have some expert opinion? To me the memos look to be modern, with proportional fonts and subscripts and so on. IBM certainly had typewriters with proportional fonts in the 1970's but they were uncommon, especially with a Palatino / Times New Roman styled font! Put all together, it doesn't seem to add up and that is before considering the unlikely discovery of documents at this time and their provenance.

This sure is an interesting election!
 
There is actually a considerable amount of evidence that the four memos are fake. At least three of them appear to have been typed up on a computer and not a typewriter. If it is proven that the documents are fake this could be a death blow to the Kerry compaign and not the Bush campaign.
 
This was reported in the local paper yesterday. The Pentagon and Mr Bush's campaign have claimed for months that all records detailing his fighter-pilot career have been made public. It reports Associated Press filed a lawsuit and crafted new requests under the public records law. The Pentagon told AP, "Previous requests for President Bush's Individual Flight records did not lead to the discovery of these records because at the time President Bush left the service, flight records were subject to retention for only 24 months and we understood that neither the Air Force nor the Texas Air National Guard retained such records there-after". "out of an abundance of caution," the Govt "searched a file that had been preserved in spite of this policy" and found the Bush records, the letter said. "The Dept of Defence regrets this oversight during the previous search efforts." He flew 326.4hrs as a pilot and 9.9 hrs as a co-pilot.
 
I am not a typography experts by any means. When I was a very young man I forged a lot of things!!! I found it to be a real challange. I made my own stamps, type setting, plates etc.... I also took machine drawing in school to enhance my skills. I never messed with curancy or passports or anything like that. I never sold anything like that. I usualy destroyed what ever I had made or passed it off as art. If what has already been said is accurate then 60 minutes out to be ashamed of themselfs for haveing such poor judgment and low standards!!

I was really sick for the first half of my childhood and had alot of time on my hands. I usaly ended up building projects out of 1940-60 science project books. The neighborhood trash was never safe. I would come home with ocilator tubes out of TV's or motors out of vaccum cleaners, old lawn mower, circuit boards to strip down etc.....
 
quote:

Originally posted by Mystic:
If it is proven that the documents are fake this could be a death blow to the Kerry compaign and not the Bush campaign.

Unlikely. If they are proven to be forgeries, they will be blamed on someone who is not a part of the Kerry campaign. CBS will give this forgery, if proven, the full attention that they gave the Swiftboat vets i.e. out of sight, out of mind. This may harm CBS a lot, Kerry not much if handled well.

Can we get Vietnam out of the news already? The true heroes have names on the memorial wall in Washington DC. Kerry served and deserves respect for that, he has no need to embellish his military service record. Bush got an honorable discharge and has been Commander in Chief for 4 years.

What these guys will do in 2005 and beyond is fair game - for another forum
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I have been googling for Bill Clinton's military records. I have found none that exist, not even National Guard service! On the other hand, the guys who ran against him in 1992 and 1996 had pretty impressive records.
 
Documents? I am in the process of appling for a passport.
>
> In September, our Mayor will invite you to our country,
> and he will pay for your flight ticket.
This is from a lady in Taiwan that has a dog we raised as her dog guide. I hope to her from the mayor soon.

I also hope to get my passport soon. I sent them a 60 year old registration of birth. That is not good enough. They want a modern document with the official embossed seal. Which would be easier to forge?
 
Labman - you don't need a VISA or a letter of invite for Taiwan.....but free tickets are NICE!!! Cool! Just get a new "remake" of the Birth certificate from the county in which you were born. Where abouts are you going?

As for those docs......something seems really hoaky. What amazes me is the press gang tackling of ANYONE (read Vietnam vets) speaking ill of Kerry's record...yet the PRESS carries the banner for any Bush muddy records. Sprintman and Shannow, the previous may be a tad subtle for you.
 
The right-leaning American Spectator suggests that Karl Rove is the mastermind behind this to dupe the DNC and Kerry campaign. If true, it's a clever trap.

quote:

Anatomy of a Forgery

By The Prowler
Published 9/10/2004 12:09:06 AM

More than six weeks ago, an opposition research staffer for the Democratic National Committee received documents purportedly written by President George W. Bush's Texas Air National Guard squadron commander, the late Col. Jerry Killian.

The oppo researcher claimed the source was "a retired military officer." According to a DNC staffer, the documents were seen by both senior staff members at the DNC, as well as the Kerry campaign.

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

The concerns arose from the sourcing. "It wasn't clear that our source for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn't confirm from what file, from what original source they came from."

The documents that CBS News used were not documents from any of Bush's personnel files from his time in the National Guard. Rather, CBS News stated that they were documents uncovered in the personnel files of Killian. That would explain why the White House or the Pentagon had never before released or even seen them.

According to a Kerry campaign source, there was little gossip about the supposedly hot documents inside the office of the campaign on McPherson Square. "Those documents were not something anyone was talking about or trying to generate buzz on," says the staffer. "It wasn't like there were small groups of people talking about this as a bombshell. I think people here weren't sure what to make of it, because provenance of these documents was uncertain."

A CBS producer, who initially tipped off The Prowler about the 60 Minutes story, says that despite seeking professional assurances that the documents were legitimate, there was uncertainty even among the group of producers and researchers working on the story.

"The problem was we had one set of documents from Bush's file that had Killian calling Bush 'an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot.' And someone who Killian said 'performed in an outstanding manner.' Then you have these new documents and the tone and content are so different."

The CBS producer said that some alarms bells went off last week when the signatures and initials of Killian on the documents in hand did not match up with other documents available on the public record, but producers chose to move ahead with the story. "This was too hot not to push. If there were doubts, those people didn't show it," says the producer, who works on a rival CBS News program.

Now, the producer says, there is growing concern inside the building on 57th Street that they may have been suckered by the Kerry campaign. "There is a school of thought here that the Kerry people dumped this in our laps, figuring we'd do the heavy lifting on the story. That maybe they had doubts about these documents but hoped we'd get more information," says the producer. "If that's the case, then we're bigger fools than we already appear to be judging by all the chatter about how these documents could be forgeries."

ABC News' political unit held a conference call at 7:00 p.m. Thursday evening to discuss the memo and its potential ramifications should the documents turn out to be a forgery. That meeting took place around the time that the deceased Killian's son made public statements questioning the documents' authenticity.

According to one ABC News employee, some reporters believe that the Kerry campaign as well as the DNC were parties in duping CBS, but a smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were duped by Karl Rove, who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.

Source: http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=7096
 
quote:

"I'm virtually certain these were computer-generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software. (Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences)

This is NOT "politics" but observation of the part of the country (USA) I live in:

The majority of portion of the USA I live in (PNW) has such an unreasoned hatred for Bush I have seen Bush backers attacked, Bush yard and large signs defaced, venomous hatred spewed with no regard for facts.....so I am simply not amazed that someone would forge such documents. It's quite sad actually. It's sad state that one of our largest news organizations (CNN), will not even investigate, but rather report them as factual, and if the other press says "hoax" CNN will quietly drop the subject.
 
I think a nuclear bomb going off in NYC is about the only thing that can get the focus of Kerry's and Bush's service records.
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I heard on morning radio (half asleep) that ABC (I believe) is questioning the records and also if CBS finds the documents it will be forced to launch a killer offensive of its own to weed out its bad source-similar to the guy the Times fired for making up stories.

This thing is gonna' take on a life of its own and will have fatal implications for Kerry. Please note I don't mean this to be an expression of favoring one candidate or another
 
Authenticity of new Bush military papers questioned

"Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript — a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" — as evidence indicating forgery.

Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated..."


I can't help but laugh my *ss off. CBS ignores the Swiftboat vets and rushes to promote this story. Thank goodness they are not partisan over there at CBS
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quote:

Originally posted by Bugzii:
The right-leaning American Spectator suggests that Karl Rove is the mastermind behind this to dupe the DNC and Kerry campaign. If true, it's a clever trap.

The thought had crossed my mind when this story broke. Here is the funny part. The trap only works if you can rely on a partisan press to hyperventilate on it. CBS took the bait. The mainstream press really is that predictable
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In my research experience dealing with government papers and reports, two of the most common typewriter typefaces of the period were Telegram and Letter Gothic, both sans serif faces. Letter Gothic in particular was quite common in the 1970s, and it resembled the typeface this post is in, Verdana, a little. Computer printouts of the period used a standard IBM monospaced face that should be quite familiar to most BITOG members from monthly utility bills and the like from that period and well into the 1980s.

Doing the ordinal suffixes (-th, -rd, -st) as smaller superscripts, as some of the memos in question have, just wasn't a general option then. I am so used to keying -st and -th in ordinal numbers as regular characters that I still do so out of habit.

The IBM Selectric was around then and could produce proportional spacing, as Keith noted, but these were expensive as heck and were not likely to be used on routine memos and the like. That was a several hundred dollar typewriter back when that was real money. Also, as Keith noted, Times Roman was not a typical face used on the Selectric. I won't say it was unavailable, but I doubt it was. As ubiquitous as Times has become, we tend to forget that it was found mainly in professionally typeset applications such as books and magazines until the late 1980s. Same story with Helvetica, which (with Times Roman) has become grossly overused.

As a side note, another thing to arouse suspicion in older documents is justification: that is, the right margin is even instead of "ragged". People typing memos, reports, etc., then just didn't go to the trouble to justify columns or pages on routine paperwork with a conventional typewriter. The Selectric could do this, again, but even then many wouldn't bother except for the most formal instances.

Yes, I am into typographical history a little. Amazing what some BITOG members are into.

[ September 10, 2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: ekrampitzjr ]
 
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