Anti Oxidation and Euro Oils

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It is spelled BULGARIA, not Bulgeria...
Anyhow, I'm not only talking about Amazon, eBay has its fair share of fakes, even World PAC, that most mechanics shops use, have a lot of fakes, especially their Liqui Moly supply.
Shops, like big chain ones (Walmart etc) has no fakes, yes.
Back to oxidation - this is relative to your operating conditions and your engine, and could vary vastly.
Personally, I would NOT trust any UOA 100%
When it comes to the health of an expensive component, such as the engine, It should not matter, for anyone, what an oil or car manufacturer says about how long you can run the oil all that LL nonsense...
An oil change is DIRT CHEAP compared to the cost of an engine, especially in the US, why bother with extended change intervals just to find where the oil stars to degrade? - does not make sense to me...
sorry about that. Spell check apparently inoperable.
 
The discussion went to bullying very fast when the poor east Europeans told the rich westerners that long OCIs are not justified and harmful.

Another example.
Renault Bulgaria refuses to change the oil of a brand new Megane 1.33tce before 30k km. My colleague combined a trip to Turkey with visit to Renault Odrin-Turkey to make an oil change at 10k km. Where they told him that he did the right thing.
RN-19 standard is LL oil and 1.33 tce is eligible for LL OCIs. Still the dealer in the country that manufactures it explains with numerous examples that it should be replaced at least three times more often.

Yesterday the most popular automotive host made numerous examples with BMW F10 engines having hard time going past 120-150k km with extended intervals and he interviewed reputable engine builder who explained what goes wrong in each engine. What's curious is that rod and main bearings also suffer the same as the timing components. Main reason: extended OCIs
 
The discussion went to bullying very fast when the poor east Europeans told the rich westerners that long OCIs are not justified and harmful.

Another example.
Renault Bulgaria refuses to change the oil of a brand new Megane 1.33tce before 30k km. My colleague combined a trip to Turkey with visit to Renault Odrin-Turkey to make an oil change at 10k km. Where they told him that he did the right thing.
RN-19 standard is LL oil and 1.33 tce is eligible for LL OCIs. Still the dealer in the country that manufactures it explains with numerous examples that it should be replaced at least three times more often.

Yesterday the most popular automotive host made numerous examples with BMW F10 engines having hard time going past 120-150k km with extended intervals and he interviewed reputable engine builder who explained what goes wrong in each engine. What's curious is that rod and main bearings also suffer the same as the timing components. Main reason: extended OCIs
The posts intent was to search for facts on anti oxidation for EURO oils that were blended to combat oxidation. I have a BMW 528i with the N20 engine (circa 2016). Under my ownership I have accumulated 100,000 miles in 30 months. After settling on Ravenol VST 5w-40 and OCI of 7k to 9k I became curious about the add packs for anti oxidation. Like many, I have owned other autos both cars and trucks, American, Japanese and German, plus a Volvo.

When I purchased my VOLVO S80 T6, it was off lease either 3 or 4 years. Total short trip car, garage queen. It was obvious to me that this motor was becoming robbed of power from the thickening of the motor oil and residuals in the engine. My highway driving and reasonable OCI's helped clean it up with no additives or extra treatments. It probably took at least 3 OCI with full syn to accomplish this.

Back to my intent: looking for the add packs for some of the better LL or EURO oils that will offset oxidation at a better rate than non-EURO oils.
 
The discussion went to bullying very fast when the poor east Europeans told the rich westerners that long OCIs are not justified and harmful.

Another example.
Renault Bulgaria refuses to change the oil of a brand new Megane 1.33tce before 30k km. My colleague combined a trip to Turkey with visit to Renault Odrin-Turkey to make an oil change at 10k km. Where they told him that he did the right thing.
RN-19 standard is LL oil and 1.33 tce is eligible for LL OCIs. Still the dealer in the country that manufactures it explains with numerous examples that it should be replaced at least three times more often.

Yesterday the most popular automotive host made numerous examples with BMW F10 engines having hard time going past 120-150k km with extended intervals and he interviewed reputable engine builder who explained what goes wrong in each engine. What's curious is that rod and main bearings also suffer the same as the timing components. Main reason: extended OCIs

The discussion went this way because the rich westerners are actually very cheap people...
I can give an example on the point of long OCIs not working well financially in the end:
As I mentioned previously, I change the synthetic oil on both my heavy duty trucks between 10-12 thousand miles. Most truckers that own their trucks don't do that, they go 20-30 thousand miles and company owned trucks go even further.
As a result, the Cummins ISX is "known" for oil pump failures around 400k and injector failures even earlier.
My pre emissions ISX has 1.1 million miles and it is still going strong without an overhaul, without oil pump or injector failures.
I like to think this is directly attributed to the short OCI and the light loads I do ( car hauler ).
My other truck, with the Cummins N14, has 1.4 million miles with no overhaul and it's still going strong - again, short OCIs and light loads.
The calculations are simple:
Short OCI, long engine life, money actually saved at the end.
So, it should not matter how good an oil is said to be (oxidation or soot suspension wise) it is always better to not go very long OCIs, it just does not make logical sense.
 
At 5k miles, fuel efficiency has just began worsening perceivably. 1L/100 or ~2mpg.
If you drive another 5k mi, the additional fuel cost for 21 gal/80L will be exactly 120-130 Euro or 140$, in the US that's around 80$. - that's your oil change.
With extended oci you pay the same, but wear more.

That's why I state that extended intervals are for professional fleet managers and leased vehicles. Owners only loose.

JXW, Castrol Edge fst titanium cleans very well, but has pretty weak parameters. Virtually all aftermarket oils are very weak and cheap presently with few well known exceptions.
As a matter of fa t, it should also have decent additive pack regarding oxidation.
What's curious with Edge is that after 8-9k km the performance of the engine begins increasing, not once, or twice, but every time. Especially with 5W30 Edge. - that's not magic, that's breakdown, it goes down to SAE-20 or less. In roller follower engines that's not that big of an issue provided pressure doesn't get below spec. Still it's an indication something's wrong, especially with the same air filter. Also that phenomenon doesn't negate the effect of dirty oil or it's lubricating properties at sliding metal against metal.

Before 2006 and 2010 I knew the only thing I needed to know, pour in the most expensive Castrol or Mobil-1 and don't worry. That's no longer the case.
After 2010 my cars began loosing power and efficiency after 3-5k miles and I began reading and trying everything.
Conclusion is: Ravenol USVO, Motul X-max, Yacco RS are PAO with good additives. Everything else is cheap oil aimed at very cheap old tgird-fourth owner beaten up cars that don't get driven a lot.
Around year 2000 you could just get Castrol RS, Mobil-1 or Motul 8100 and be safe. - marketing killed that comfort for the users.
Present day oils don't even match the Motul 6100 from back then.
 
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It is spelled BULGARIA, not Bulgeria...
Anyhow, I'm not only talking about Amazon, eBay has its fair share of fakes, even World PAC, that most mechanics shops use, have a lot of fakes, especially their Liqui Moly supply.
Shops, like big chain ones (Walmart etc) has no fakes, yes.
Back to oxidation - this is relative to your operating conditions and your engine, and could vary vastly.
Personally, I would NOT trust any UOA 100%
When it comes to the health of an expensive component, such as the engine, It should not matter, for anyone, what an oil or car manufacturer says about how long you can run the oil all that LL nonsense...
An oil change is DIRT CHEAP compared to the cost of an engine, especially in the US, why bother with extended change intervals just to find where the oil stars to degrade? - does not make sense to me...

The discussion went to bullying very fast when the poor east Europeans told the rich westerners that long OCIs are not justified and harmful.

Another example.
Renault Bulgaria refuses to change the oil of a brand new Megane 1.33tce before 30k km. My colleague combined a trip to Turkey with visit to Renault Odrin-Turkey to make an oil change at 10k km. Where they told him that he did the right thing.
RN-19 standard is LL oil and 1.33 tce is eligible for LL OCIs. Still the dealer in the country that manufactures it explains with numerous examples that it should be replaced at least three times more often.

Yesterday the most popular automotive host made numerous examples with BMW F10 engines having hard time going past 120-150k km with extended intervals and he interviewed reputable engine builder who explained what goes wrong in each engine. What's curious is that rod and main bearings also suffer the same as the timing components. Main reason: extended OCIs
No bullying from westerners. Anecdotal claims are questioned because our data and experience suggest otherwise.

Outside engineering failures or neglected maintenance engines in the US do not fail at 120k miles because of a 10k OCI. It's just not happening.

So why are your experiences different?

For example I've run my BMW at 10k oci and when I had the valve cover off (@55k miles) the valvetrain was essentially spotless.
 
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The discussion went this way because the rich westerners are actually very cheap people...
I can give an example on the point of long OCIs not working well financially in the end:
As I mentioned previously, I change the synthetic oil on both my heavy duty trucks between 10-12 thousand miles. Most truckers that own their trucks don't do that, they go 20-30 thousand miles and company owned trucks go even further.
As a result, the Cummins ISX is "known" for oil pump failures around 400k and injector failures even earlier.
My pre emissions ISX has 1.1 million miles and it is still going strong without an overhaul, without oil pump or injector failures.
I like to think this is directly attributed to the short OCI and the light loads I do ( car hauler ).
My other truck, with the Cummins N14, has 1.4 million miles with no overhaul and it's still going strong - again, short OCIs and light loads.
The calculations are simple:
Short OCI, long engine life, money actually saved at the end.
So, it should not matter how good an oil is said to be (oxidation or soot suspension wise) it is always better to not go very long OCIs, it just does not make logical sense.
no, no one is bullying you. And this is coming from your fellow central (eastern) European.
It is just that you don’t understand basic meaning of what are facts and what are assumptions.
Facts don’t care where you live and your origin. And assumptions are mother of all screw ups.
I worked on oil testing and testing of Toyota engines in Eastern Europe. If Toyota says it is good, it is GOOD! Techs you have contact with are not nor they will be part of that conversation.
 
The site had became outlandishly anti car guy.

BTW, similar very substantiated posts filled with knowledgeable pathos costed me a full set of valvetrain except the cams of then new Mustang GT. The anty SAE-20 campaign from 2005-onwards.

->So, oil at 6-7-8-10k miles is better than new oil? Yes, or no? What do you achieve with extended drain intervals?
Do you deny the loss of efficiency as oil ages?

My 1hd-fte was also spotless seemingly washed with detergent on the inside when we opened it for valve adjustment at 130k miles. Oils replaced randomly between as low as 600 mi, 3k mi and mostly 4-5k mi.
 
The site had became outlandishly anti car guy.

BTW, similar very substantiated posts filled with knowledgeable pathos costed me a full set of valvetrain except the cams of then new Mustang GT. The anty SAE-20 campaign from 2005-onwards.

->So, oil at 6-7-8-10k miles is better than new oil? Yes, or no? What do you achieve with extended drain intervals?
Do you deny the loss of efficiency as oil ages?

My 1hd-fte was also spotless seemingly washed with detergent on the inside when we opened it for valve adjustment at 130k miles. Oils replaced randomly between as low as 600 mi, 3k mi and mostly 4-5k mi.
There is oil university at the front page. Go read it.
 
The discussion went to bullying very fast when the poor east Europeans told the rich westerners that long OCIs are not justified and harmful.

Another example.
Renault Bulgaria refuses to change the oil of a brand new Megane 1.33tce before 30k km. My colleague combined a trip to Turkey with visit to Renault Odrin-Turkey to make an oil change at 10k km. Where they told him that he did the right thing.
RN-19 standard is LL oil and 1.33 tce is eligible for LL OCIs. Still the dealer in the country that manufactures it explains with numerous examples that it should be replaced at least three times more often.

Yesterday the most popular automotive host made numerous examples with BMW F10 engines having hard time going past 120-150k km with extended intervals and he interviewed reputable engine builder who explained what goes wrong in each engine. What's curious is that rod and main bearings also suffer the same as the timing components. Main reason: extended OCIs

The discussion went this way because the rich westerners are actually very cheap people...
I can give an example on the point of long OCIs not working well financially in the end:
As I mentioned previously, I change the synthetic oil on both my heavy duty trucks between 10-12 thousand miles. Most truckers that own their trucks don't do that, they go 20-30 thousand miles and company owned trucks go even further.
As a result, the Cummins ISX is "known" for oil pump failures around 400k and injector failures even earlier.
My pre emissions ISX has 1.1 million miles and it is still going strong without an overhaul, without oil pump or injector failures.
I like to think this is directly attributed to the short OCI and the light loads I do ( car hauler ).
My other truck, with the Cummins N14, has 1.4 million miles with no overhaul and it's still going strong - again, short OCIs and light loads.
The calculations are simple:
Short OCI, long engine life, money actually saved at the end.
So, it should not matter how good an oil is said to be (oxidation or soot suspension wise) it is always better to not go very long OCIs, it just does not make logical
The site had became outlandishly anti car guy.

BTW, similar very substantiated posts filled with knowledgeable pathos costed me a full set of valvetrain except the cams of then new Mustang GT. The anty SAE-20 campaign from 2005-onwards.

->So, oil at 6-7-8-10k miles is better than new oil? Yes, or no? What do you achieve with extended drain intervals?
Do you deny the loss of efficiency as oil ages?

My 1hd-fte was also spotless seemingly washed with detergent on the inside when we opened it for valve adjustment at 130k miles. Oils replaced randomly between as low as 600 mi, 3k mi and mostly 4-5k mi.
It seems that for most users here real life experience does not matter, it's just an assumption and that is " the mother of all screw ups" and whatever Toyota says is good apparently is the word of GOD himself...
And even for the poor Macedonian guy edywv, that believes in the history written for them by the serbians, it is more important to read the oil university on the front page instead of taking in mind real life experience.
Somehow, both my heavy duty engines are well over the million mile mark, but this is probably not because I've done frequent oil changes, it's just an assumption and this must be the mother of all screw ups...
Just go read the oil university and don't give them any real life experience, no point!
Because whatever the oil or car manufacturers says is THE word and it can be the ONLY truth, nothing else matters!
What a bunch of ignorant crowd this forum is!
Just wish em good luck and don't waste your time and knowledge here.
 
Another Bulgarian here :)

@CleanSump You are correct. It does not apply only to oil, it's pretty much everything.

I have grown to dislike the forum favorite M1 0W-40 FS. My M272 E class calls for 229.5 oil. When I bought it the first oil change I used the Mobil. The car gets 90% freeway and 10% city driving and at around 3.5k-4k miles into the OCI the car displayed "Check oil level at next refueling". I did and it had gone down according to the dipstick. I poured about a quart and went about driving. The OCI is set at 13k miles so I decided to check it at half that interval. It was quite dirty and foul smelling. I changed it out with the same Mobil oil and replaced the filter. Same thing happened in another 3.5-4k miles. Again I decided to change it, guess what - same thing, oil comes out bubbling, foul smelling and again quite dirty. I decided to give Liqui Moly a try since it is getting quite a bit of marketing hype all over the internet. I have not had to add any oil for the 6.5k it was in the car. Also, it came out a lot cleaner and a lot thicker than what I had the Mobil come out as. For the next 6.5k I just poured Castrol 0W-40 to see how that works out. I still don't get the hype around M1 0W-40 other than it being cheap. I will most likely get to do an M271 that has done 10k with the Mobil so I'll see what that comes out as, maybe it's just my car.
 
Cleansump, That's not the case sir.
I am also hobby / garage DIY maintenance and even engine builder on few occasions on my own and on more occasions as part of a group X3 racing team (up to 2.0 n/a). - including designing induction systems and exhaust, choosing cams, clearances, honing, balance, etc. Still passing experience down to present day racers in the same group. - nothing else to do with it and the gear that is relevant is being phased out.

Bottom line is that after say 2005 oils began getting lower quality.
It is highly unlikely I ever got counterfeit oil, because I know every official importer. At times I have resorted to Toyota OE oils, Motul specific products, etc.
Having followed the oil market for so many years I remember allot of things. For instance virtually every major brand had difficulties with catching up with the standards after SJ, particularly after SL and ILSAC GF-4 was the standard that got introduced virtually after it was superceded by GF-5, major brands weren't able to catch up for long years. - you go through the catalogue, and there are simply no products up to modern standard.
SN+ was also particularly hard to introduce standard for brands like Castrol and Mobil. Up to a couple of years ago both brands had 1 (one) type of oil covering SN+.
Aftermarket oils that are not car maker branded are having really bad time the last 15 years. Motul didn't have a suitable GF-4 product for the good part of that decade and a half.

Also, it is very odd to stumble upon group of people presumably with "oil hobby" talking about oil life solely as mileage. 2.3k mi can be covered in ~50 engine hours at 42mph average speed and oil life monitor stating 77-80% oil life left. The same can be covered in 100 hours easily in winter and trips to nearby winter resorts with closer to 40% oil life expended. So one oil change can be say 8k miles and the other 4.5k miles or less for the same engine hours and oil life.

Just reset your trip 1 at oil change. Or scan the engine hours.

So, everything varies a lot.

Long oci are a very tricky business. Someone got a good 9k miles UOA, good for him!
If you read the manual though and go through the page I cited by memory earlier, you'll be convinced that long drain intervals are a big exception that requires allot of stars to align properly. - again, that is from the OEM user manual,not an opinion or an impression. So any UOA is just random occurrence. The scientific job has been done at the OEM and they wrote the manual. - they have the instruments and the research data, not we.

And for the 10th time: efficiency improves at oil change, so regular 3-5k mi oci pays for itself in more than one way.
 
Cleansump, That's not the case sir.
I am also hobby / garage DIY maintenance and even engine builder on few occasions on my own and on more occasions as part of a group X3 racing team (up to 2.0 n/a). - including designing induction systems and exhaust, choosing cams, clearances, honing, balance, etc. Still passing experience down to present day racers in the same group. - nothing else to do with it and the gear that is relevant is being phased out.

Bottom line is that after say 2005 oils began getting lower quality.
It is highly unlikely I ever got counterfeit oil, because I know every official importer. At times I have resorted to Toyota OE oils, Motul specific products, etc.
Having followed the oil market for so many years I remember allot of things. For instance virtually every major brand had difficulties with catching up with the standards after SJ, particularly after SL and ILSAC GF-4 was the standard that got introduced virtually after it was superceded by GF-5, major brands weren't able to catch up for long years. - you go through the catalogue, and there are simply no products up to modern standard.
SN+ was also particularly hard to introduce standard for brands like Castrol and Mobil. Up to a couple of years ago both brands had 1 (one) type of oil covering SN+.
Aftermarket oils that are not car maker branded are having really bad time the last 15 years. Motul didn't have a suitable GF-4 product for the good part of that decade and a half.

Also, it is very odd to stumble upon group of people presumably with "oil hobby" talking about oil life solely as mileage. 2.3k mi can be covered in ~50 engine hours at 42mph average speed and oil life monitor stating 77-80% oil life left. The same can be covered in 100 hours easily in winter and trips to nearby winter resorts with closer to 40% oil life expended. So one oil change can be say 8k miles and the other 4.5k miles or less for the same engine hours and oil life.

Just reset your trip 1 at oil change. Or scan the engine hours.

So, everything varies a lot.

Long oci are a very tricky business. Someone got a good 9k miles UOA, good for him!
If you read the manual though and go through the page I cited by memory earlier, you'll be convinced that long drain intervals are a big exception that requires allot of stars to align properly. - again, that is from the OEM user manual,not an opinion or an impression. So any UOA is just random occurrence. The scientific job has been done at the OEM and they wrote the manual. - they have the instruments and the research data, not we.

And for the 10th time: efficiency improves at oil change, so regular 3-5k mi oci pays for itself in more than one way.
I wouldn't panic too much, the 2005 lower oil quality rhetoric is likely due to the lower ZDDP hysteria which, as you're in racing circle, will still be going round like wildfire. To meet the requirements of new emission systems, ZDDP content was reduced but was replaced with other anti-wear additives. Higher ZDDP does not equal higher quality or lower wear, it can actually give higher wear in some cases. It's the complete blend of additives that lower wear in a given application. Modern oils are of higher quality than their predecessors as a rule as the chemical and base oil producers constantly improve the quality of their production. The application is the most important thing to get right, everything else is secondary.
 
I am also not a fan of ZDDP, also, we were racing with relatively modern direct action DOHC. 2.0 N/A doesn't necessarily load the oil much even at 240whp. My preference has always been for lighter oils SAE-50 or even SAE-40, good cooling and proper clearances, honing and rings. It has to survive six races before rebuild. Moly additive can also ruin a camshaft. The so-called racing oils have ruined more engines than they saved...

As user from long time ago my market observation is that around year 2000 a liter of quality synthetic was retailed at around 20 Euro or 22-24$, prices are falling ever since as well as the quality of the oils in a big share of the market. What's more curious is that the same cars with the same oils began loosing power and efficiency at certain mileage, then there was a period of experiments with all suitable products on the market and then somewhere around 2015 we began finding which products are good after allot of back and forth and short oci's.
Why I have this personal statistic, because I maintained among others the same 9-10 cars from 1993 to present day with one broken (2.5tds)
and one sold, but still running (93 Jeep 4.0) there's some overlap, but at least 2-3-4 cars entirely cover the period I am referring to with pre and past experience.
So, my statistic is unanimous, after 05-10 oils got cheap, like 1/2 or more cheaper, problems began, darkening, loss of power, etc. Allot of reading and trying later, I found the proper oils with true synthetic base and modern high performance additive packs. - those are about 2x the price of M1, Castrol, etc. The only other oils that come close in price and maybe performance are OEM or the so called "specific" oils.
 
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Bottom line is that after say 2005 oils began getting lower quality.
No they did not. Manufacturers approvals are constantly becoming more stringent. Oils are becoming more robust and higher quality.

"For instance virtually every major brand had difficulties with catching up with the standards after SJ, particularly after SL and ILSAC GF-4 was the standard that got introduced virtually after it was superceded by GF-5, major brands weren't able to catch up for long years. - you go through the catalogue, and there are simply no products up to modern standard. SN+ was also particularly hard to introduce standard for brands like Castrol and Mobil. Up to a couple of years ago both brands had 1 (one) type of oil covering SN+.
No it was not. 1. You statement is contradictory to your previous statement. In previous statement you are claiming oils became of lower quality. Now you are claiming they have tough time catching up. Both statements are not true! You are guessing here what is happening. It is your opinion. Like I said, oils did not became of lower quality. 2. Oil blenders, ESPECIALLY Mobil1, Castrol, Shell etc. work with API, ACEA etc. (and API is nothing special). For example Shell had Helix in the market that was API SP compliant 4 years before API introduced SP, and they know exactly when new specifications are coming. What do you think how this works? API suddenly gets specification out and then there is race to blend oils? That is NOT how this business works.

by GF-5, major brands weren't able to catch up for long years. - you go through the catalogue, and there are simply no products up to modern standard.

OK, show us those catalogues?

Aftermarket oils that are not car maker branded are having really bad time the last 15 years. Motul didn't have a suitable GF-4 product for the good part of that decade and a half.
And you think (if that is the case) bcs. Motul could not blend GF4? What do you think how this is done? Everyone blends its own recipe from ground up? Motul has access to base stocks and additives to purchase same like everyone else. Did ever occur to you that companies might not blend something bcs. it is not in their business interest? Maybe they think there is no market? So does that mean that Mobil1 cannot blend LL01 or LL04 while Lukoil, OMV, INA, Optima, Statoil etc. some small blenders can?
You need different hobby.
 
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