Question: what is the key additive in Euro oils that permit LL-01 certification? Also, what is the chemistry required (other adds) to provide the long life certifications?
Anti Oxidation and Euro Oils
- Thread starter JXW
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So would the oils that meet the newer LL-04, MB 229.52, or VW 511 specs have more PAO?
Those are approvals. Approvals don’t mean certain base stock has to be used.
Some oils will have Group III, some GTL, some mostly Group III, but also PAO, and some like Mobil1 kind of put everything in.
Not necessarily. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if some
blenders would fulfill the requirements of mentioned approvals
entirely without any PAO used. That said, some of them use more
or less PAO for them. It's perhaps easiest to meet the approvals
using mainly PAO and some POE and AN, but cost restrictions do
limit using (or excessive amounts of) them.
.
Like Ed alluded to, it's about matching the business end of the oil (the additive package) to the requirements of the engine and exhaust after-treatment devices in totality. It's not one additive, it's the complete blend that's important. That's why it's always best to stick to a selection process you can't go wrong with. There are essentially only two things you have to get right, the viscosity and performance spec. Everything else is secondary to those two things. All the US lads making oils make excellent oils and it'll be almost impossible to find a bad one, almost everyone buys off the peg recipes (additive packages) from oronite,lubrizol etc and they blend them in their highly accurate computer-controlled blenders. Some of the supermajors additive packages are proprietory so they formulate the add pack recipe themselves, either way, they'll be very good.
Just to let you know, in EU whoever follows 30k km / 15k mi OCI gets a broken engine in the frame of 40k mi.
Most notorious for that are current VW 1.8tsi which just can't go through the second or third OCI.
Allot of Mazdas also clog their oil rings from long OCI's.
Engines with timing chains have excessive wear very prematurely due to soot abrasing them. - that's the tip of the iceberg, imagine it abrased everything else as well.
Also, there might be an oil that can survive 10k mi chemically, but there is no such oil filter that can survive bathing in hot oil that many hours. Especially paper filters. OK, do mid OCI oil filter replacement if you are not ashamed to change the socks on non washed legs.
Second, what's that "price" thing? The personal vehicle is the second most valuable belonging after the home. 27-50-100$ all look the same from that perspective. - Talking about price is almost a mental disorder symptom. A normal person should go after the seller of the best oil yelling to take his money. Especially so if we consider the notorious fact, that's ever ignored on that forum: gas mileage increases significantly after an oil change. An oil change even at 5k mi pays for itself when compared to extending the dumped oil life to 10k mi. - that's how I persuade many cheap automobilists to do 5k mi OCI's. In big engined vehicles such as 4.2td Land Cruiser, 4.6 Mustang and even 3.0tt Lincoln the efficiency gain in certain conditions can be up to >1L/100 km (the difference between 21.4mpg to 23.5 i.e. ~2mpg) - I've established that firmly. Maybe the air filter replacement contributes to that, but it's not only that, new oil is better.
Third, it's so well established that mineral base oils last 1.300 miles shearing down and then begins an eternal process of thickening, that LL oil and the suspicious happiness that someone put in it 20-30-40% PAO is ridiculous. It is either 100% base mix of 85%PAO and 15%Esters, or it contains ingredients that deteriorate rapidly. Also, what about OFM - organic friction modifiers, modern additives and modern friction modifiers and dry lubricants? ZDDP is 60's technology. I see so much of the same mantras, it's strange.
Anything that's not strictly synthetic based and additivised with present day additives is just 2-3k mi oil in the best case.
180h, 6 months or 5k mi. - that's all there is provided you use a 100% synthetic based modern oil. There are numerous reasons to throw away a 2-3k mi oil, extended high speed highway, winter, traffic jams, before long journey, etc.
Best regards!
Most notorious for that are current VW 1.8tsi which just can't go through the second or third OCI.
Allot of Mazdas also clog their oil rings from long OCI's.
Engines with timing chains have excessive wear very prematurely due to soot abrasing them. - that's the tip of the iceberg, imagine it abrased everything else as well.
Also, there might be an oil that can survive 10k mi chemically, but there is no such oil filter that can survive bathing in hot oil that many hours. Especially paper filters. OK, do mid OCI oil filter replacement if you are not ashamed to change the socks on non washed legs.
Second, what's that "price" thing? The personal vehicle is the second most valuable belonging after the home. 27-50-100$ all look the same from that perspective. - Talking about price is almost a mental disorder symptom. A normal person should go after the seller of the best oil yelling to take his money. Especially so if we consider the notorious fact, that's ever ignored on that forum: gas mileage increases significantly after an oil change. An oil change even at 5k mi pays for itself when compared to extending the dumped oil life to 10k mi. - that's how I persuade many cheap automobilists to do 5k mi OCI's. In big engined vehicles such as 4.2td Land Cruiser, 4.6 Mustang and even 3.0tt Lincoln the efficiency gain in certain conditions can be up to >1L/100 km (the difference between 21.4mpg to 23.5 i.e. ~2mpg) - I've established that firmly. Maybe the air filter replacement contributes to that, but it's not only that, new oil is better.
Third, it's so well established that mineral base oils last 1.300 miles shearing down and then begins an eternal process of thickening, that LL oil and the suspicious happiness that someone put in it 20-30-40% PAO is ridiculous. It is either 100% base mix of 85%PAO and 15%Esters, or it contains ingredients that deteriorate rapidly. Also, what about OFM - organic friction modifiers, modern additives and modern friction modifiers and dry lubricants? ZDDP is 60's technology. I see so much of the same mantras, it's strange.
Anything that's not strictly synthetic based and additivised with present day additives is just 2-3k mi oil in the best case.
180h, 6 months or 5k mi. - that's all there is provided you use a 100% synthetic based modern oil. There are numerous reasons to throw away a 2-3k mi oil, extended high speed highway, winter, traffic jams, before long journey, etc.
Best regards!
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You have good points, but also A LOT of assumptions.
Your explanation about oxidative thickening is at best ridiculous and not based on any factual data. Motul 5W40 X-Cess GEN2 is hydrocracked oil and I saw few days ago UOA of that oil used extensively on track in BMW M2 for 5k miles with almost non existent oxidation.
ZDDP is still the key anti wear (when everything else fails) additive (40's technology by the way, not 60's). Just bcs. it is 40's technology does not men it is obsolete. Then a lot of things we use in daily life is obsolete technology.
You also have a point, but your example is particularly bad.
Motul X-cess is a mediocre and unremarkable oil that should be thrown away at exactly 3-4k miles.
Here in Bulgaria it was very popular as being a 8100 series that had good reputation from 20 years ago.
I abandoned it about five years ago (maybe more), because after 3-4k miles it lost pressure on the gauge of a land Cruiser 100 perceivably. After some research presently I use the same 1hd-fte with Ravenol SSO 0W30 with rock steady pressure throuout 0 to 5.000 mi.
A colleague used it after me and it was consistently beginning to burn at 0.5L/1.000 km after 3-4k mi and also made the engine of his 523i (2.5L) E39 noisy, now he uses Ravenol SSL or Motul X-max, both PAO based 0W-40, no noises, no oil consumption, no darkening. Basically the x-cess at 6k mi or a year shortened the life of his car. Several changes in my Toyota maybe didn't harm it, because I drive more, so it didn't stay in it more than 6 months at a time.
No oxidation over how many engine hours? If it's highway, trips to the track and tracking it might be just 100 hours.
Anyway, x-cess is known cheap and weak oil. (retails at about 8.5-9 Euro)
ZDDP might be very good in a pushrod and 3k mi OCI, but in modern oil that has to be used 5-6 or 10k mi, the classic formula just doesn't work, because at some point it begins interacting with the other additives and they begin using each other up. Moreover in a basically mineral base that breaks down, thickens and etc. the whole package becomes a mess. - Especially so in a highly volatile oil and all non PAO oils are highly volatile. For instance, Ravenol DXG 5W-30 has volatility of 6% and flash point of 256°C, imagine how much less will evaporate and carry additives into the combustion chamber and eventually catalysts. - that's what I use in my 3.0EB.
Again on the x-cess, pour point - 36°C... You know what that means, anything below - 10°C and you are starting a tank in Syberia, put a bottle in the refrigerator and then I dare you to go skiing in Tyrol with cold starts at - 15...
Next parameter - 10% volatility. - quite ridiculous. That's incompatible with API SP and barely covering the required 14% for lesser standards... And that's new oil. Imagine what will happend after 1.300 miles.
It's only good parameter is the flash point at 232°C for some reason. But that's virgin oil.
BTW, my source for the 1.3k mi and other postulates
is a very big research of the Teheran university available online. It's on mineral base stocks and all processes are followed, documented and explained by all standards of the art of science.Also, if you get a 3.0EB manual, for instance out of '17 Continental, you'll find extremely interesting page about OCI's.
It goes like that:
1. Oil that has all standards, ribbon, star, API, ILSAC, Dexos, etc.: a. light duty - 10k mi or according to onboard oil life system in %, but consider scheduling oil change at 20%; b. Heavy duty, hilly, traffic jams, high speed highway, hot, cold, etc. (I.e. Outside California rural areas) - 5k mi;
Now it becomes interesting...
2. Oil that's the right viscosity, but has claims outside SAE j300 and API SN/SP instead or actual licenses... 3k mi;
3. Oil from point 1, but in the middle east or north Africa... 2k mi lol
4. Other oils of the right viscosity, parameters, etc. but no ILSAC, ribbon and star... 1.300 miles (2k km).
So an equivalent oil to that x-cess, but in 5w-30 viscosity is allowed to be used in modern engine not more than 2k km and you are encouraged to change it ASAP.
WHAT in Earth can make anyone pour this in a modern vehicle especially an M-power?! LL with 10% volatility. That's not serious.
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It's just so troublesome, you can barely move around here for cars littering the sides of the roads with broken engines..... oh wait...
I followed 18k mile OCI on several cars (gasoline and diesel) and never once had a broken engine. And this was before Brexit too, so was in the EU.
And what about all those HD trucks with OCIs out to 150k km? They don't use full synthetic.
The filtration in trucks is on another level, also the speed and loads are different. Trucks are not passenger cars.
You'll be surprised by the engine hours though. A truck might achieve a lifetime average speed of 45-50 mph, so those 150k km equal 1900 engine hours, that's ten 5k mi OCI of someone like me, or five of someone like you. And less than three times what a certain brand advertises (700Eh). Given that the filtering is at least quadruple or quintruple in a truck, and it operates at constant 1500-1900 rpm state, that's not an extraterrestial achievement. Many trucks or owners do oil change at 50k km.
Mineral oils and heavy diesel engines come along better than high speed passenger car engines. Also, it's not true that trucks don't use synthetic, they do. See Motul and Shell truck oils especially past formulations.
Your case, where do you live in the UK? If it's Newton Abbot or Plymouth, Portsmouth, etc. 18k mi are 360Eh, your engines just got littered with some deposits and maybe they weren't gasoline Di. Then, maybe you sold them long before 200k mi, so the effects will be for the next owner. - all that doesn't mean you didn't pay for another oil change at the gas station for the extra consumption past 5k miles.
Kjmack, residual TBN doesn't account for soot and insolubles, small metal particles or oil's actual properties against wear.
What's also firmly established is that US car guys who listen to their fathers and grand fathers and practice OCI at 3-5k miles / 6 months do not experience engine failures or performance degradation.
Anyway, I commented because some users experienced joy and happiness because some oil company formulated it's so-called LL oil with some PAO and the price for a 5L jug was at the price of a stake at the restaurant. - that's so very enthusiastic.
Best regards!
Quite interesting reading, especially about pour point and cold start 
Thanks for the lesson. I guess those years spent developing engine oils for trucks were wasted. Yes there are synthetic HD engine oils but there are also plenty of mineral oils that have long drain approvals on them. I would not be surprised by any truck operating statistics, having been involved with truck engine oil field trials and approval testing. For example, yes - they have some decent filtration but this doesn't impact oxidation and further, the load the engines are put under is generally much higher than a car - truck engines operate for much more time at a high % of maximum output compared to cars, which rarely even get near maximum output.
I'm not sure what locations in the south-west of England have to do with operating hours? I don't live there and the engines I had were a mix of nat-asp PI and turbo DI gasoline as well as turbodiesels. Major engine failures are vanishingly rare these days and the typical servicing behaviour is for owners to follow the prompts on the dashboard, which will be triggered by the OEMs' servicing regime. Even "standard" ODI in Europe is 15k km, with 30k km being the maximum extended drain (usually under a variable service protocol, so 30k km is the longest it will go under the right conditions). Remember, your statement was that "...in EU whoever follows 30k km / 15k mi OCI gets a broken engine in the frame of 40k mi...". I'm here to refute that statement.
if we are going to get in the particulars...
Calculate the heat time-constant and conductivity of pistons, cylinders and cylinder head. No need to mention absolute torque or pressure loads through connecting rods over the effective area of bearings. - this will show you why a HD truck engine is 13 liters for the same 400-500-600 hp a car engine develops from 4 liters.
Truck engines are not more stressed than car engines. Way less stress.
A truck engine will take a full day of maximum power without ever getting near saturating with heat any part of the combustion chamber.
So this is irrelevant.
English rural areas have a lot to do with average speed.
Facts are 1.8tsi's die before 100k km, often before 80k km having completed two OCI's.
Lots and lots of chain driven timing BMW and MB engines at ~150k km or earlier need repairs costing the full price of a 6-8 cyl US long block.
Car enthusiasts follow completely different OCI's. I am in two Lincoln groups and a forum, also follow a Mustang forum. There are car owners of vehicles from every from the past 22 years. No one is going more than 5-6k mi.
Calculate the heat time-constant and conductivity of pistons, cylinders and cylinder head. No need to mention absolute torque or pressure loads through connecting rods over the effective area of bearings. - this will show you why a HD truck engine is 13 liters for the same 400-500-600 hp a car engine develops from 4 liters.
Truck engines are not more stressed than car engines. Way less stress.
A truck engine will take a full day of maximum power without ever getting near saturating with heat any part of the combustion chamber.
So this is irrelevant.
English rural areas have a lot to do with average speed.
Facts are 1.8tsi's die before 100k km, often before 80k km having completed two OCI's.
Lots and lots of chain driven timing BMW and MB engines at ~150k km or earlier need repairs costing the full price of a 6-8 cyl US long block.
Car enthusiasts follow completely different OCI's. I am in two Lincoln groups and a forum, also follow a Mustang forum. There are car owners of vehicles from every from the past 22 years. No one is going more than 5-6k mi.
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But, I really wabt to find more about pour point and cold start? Please educate us!
Why you bother?
Your irony is pointless. Even only below -10C the differences are very significant. In the summer we are splitting hairs about fractions of the second quicker lubrication.
and the only acceptable in the test is rated -48C.
I have made cold starts at -26C - back then I had Motul E-tech 0W-40 in the engine.
Often I have to start below -10C and sometimes around -20C.
Educate yourselves.
No actual car owner should ever use LL - anything, or if he does, it should be used at normal intervals;
Nothing except actual full synthetic oil should ever be used in an owned automobile;
Since on the market there are oils that meet all standards and are actually ILSAC, DEXOS and etc. licensed and have pour points below -50C and flash points above 230C (some even more) - no other lubricant should ever be used;
Long drain intervals, LL service oils, etc. talking about costs should be permissible only between professional fleet manages of fleets of leased vehicles that are expected to be fully used up technically in the lease period and sold at minimal residual value to junk yards or for scrap. those are rental cars, big companies who lease company cars, etc.
->A person who owns or is going to own their vehicle should always be advised to do 6 months / 5k miles OCI with the actual best fully synthetic licensed and approved oil.
People come here and read nonsense, then rely on it.
15 years ago I have read that the modular 4.6-3V mustang is better off with SAE-30 or even-40 and tonns of nonsense.
Later, breakdown after breakdown the forum has came to some knowledge... that for instance the hot idle pressure with 5W-20 is 65psi - 4.5 bar and the hot 2k rpm pressure is 5.2 bar - 75psi... minimum... and everything against lighter weight oils is pure nonsense.
The LL myth is being presently busted throughout the planet by dealers and independent shops. - impossible with mineral based oil, even partially mineral based. Almost impossible with synthetics.
And comes someone to claim that an oil that's officially recognized as low quality engine breaker had stood unoxidized for 5k mi in a you know an M-powered BMW... and the M-power engine stood broosed and unprotected.
Come to your senses and use actual empirical data from practice.
Yes they do. But fortunately most people can see through it even when it is repeated over and over by lengthy unsubstantiated statements.
UOA's are not showing high levels of oxidation at 7k or even 10k miles. At least in the United States.
Does your market have a problem over counterfeit products?
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