Another Fram PH-8A

[widman]

As I've said before, personally I don't mind a cardboard end cap if the hole lined up and sealed the center tube.
Not many Frams make it to our place, but one came in the other day and we cut it open and showed him why he shouldn't pay more for Fram than Donaldson.
Here is the PH-8A. The flat spring at the end was rusted and neither end cap sealed against the metal, with the center tube resting perforated metal on metal. Draw your own conclusions as to where the oil flows.

 

[Thax]

Another quality Orange Can of Death !

 

[webfors]

The adbv and leaf spring don't seal against the center tube because they weren't meant to. They seal against the end cap which is bonded to the media. The center tube is just there to give the media some backing and to prevent the media from entering the oil passages should it tear itself a hole... a-la-ecore.

 

[webfors]

What's the media look like? Since it's a PH-8A I suspect it's ugly. Please take a pic

 

[Herz]

This is a problem the Ecores do not have. Although this filter wont damage your motor, it is not worth the premium they charge for it.

Thanks for the pics.

 

[widman]

Originally Posted By: webfors
The adbv and leaf spring don't seal against the center tube because they weren't meant to. They seal against the end cap which is bonded to the media. The center tube is just there to give the media some backing and to prevent the media from entering the oil passages should it tear itself a hole... a-la-ecore.
If the top and bottom don't seal, the oil goes right around instead of through the media. They have to seal.

 

[edhackett]

webfors, look at the first picture, right side. The center tube is above the media end, preventing the end cap from seating against the fiber media as designed. More dissected FRAMS are like this than not.

Ed

 

[Sayjac]

Widman, with some of the ugly orange cans you've posted here, this one doesn't look too bad.

While I would prefer the endcap cover the centertube, I've heard the same argument, that the centertube simply supports the media, and some metal exposed on the ends isn't an issue.

Another reason I prefer metal though.

You are right about paying more for Fram than Donaldson. Hello, anyone home McFly? Hello!

 

[turbochem]

Originally Posted By: Thax
Another quality Orange Can of Death !


What's wrong with it exactly?

 

[mechanicx]

This is the main concern I have with the design. The metal center tube can't or doesn't provide vertical support of the media as it is trying to seal between the bottom spring and the ADBV. I don't know if it is a real issue or not. In a Purolator for instance the metal endcaps capture the metal centertube and the centertube provides vertical support.

 

[goodtimes]

I like the Denso with no end caps, just the pleats are folded and glued to each other, like some cartridge filters. The center tube is all that is needed, the way I see the construction, the end caps, metal or whatever just hang there, and offer NO structure between the top spring and bottom plate. They do keep the media ends in place, but it is the old way with potted glue and steel/fiber caps. The Denso seems a more efficient manufacturing design for the future, IMHO.

 

[mongo161]

Instead of rust, as you describe the brown substance by the spring, could this brown residue possibly be varnish? How many miles was the filter run for on the vehicle and the approximate number of months? Thanks

 

[motorguy222]

Originally Posted By: webfors
The adbv and leaf spring don't seal against the center tube because they weren't meant to. They seal against the end cap which is bonded to the media. The center tube is just there to give the media some backing and to prevent the media from entering the oil passages should it tear itself a hole... a-la-ecore.



While Fram may not be the best,the above post is correct.

The filter media is bonded/glued to the fiber endcaps and the metal center tube is to help support the media and keep it from collapsing.

I have not used a Fram in years but I used to use them more than any other filter and may have used them and them alone at one point.I never had any problems with them and never had any engine problems that I know of.Fram may not be the best but I dont think that they are the engine destroying filters that some make them out to be.

Are there better filters?,some will say yes.

Are there worse filters?,some will say yes.E-Cores in reality have a similar construction as far as the end caps.The Fram does have a better media support compared to the E-Core's plastic/nylon cage which is quite open.

Are they as bad as some say?

No,probably not,if they were,cars would be sitting on the sides of the road because of engine damage.

While there have been failures with Fram,are the failure rates any higher than any other filter? Probably not.If you take the huge number of Frams that are sold each year and compare their actual failure rate to others,they most likely will about the same.

While their failure rate may seem high,the high amount of Frams that are sold will make their failures seem higher than other filters.

 

[widman]

The center tube provides structure, but the seal between it and the retention valve and filter is what forces the oil through the fiber, not around it. There are a lot of seal designs, but when the oil comes into the outer part of the filter, and can flow directly between the seal and the filter, it will. When it gets to the top and can go around it and into the tube as if there was a relief valve there.

The filter media was intact and fairly clean, probably because the oil went around it.

Rust is rust. No video trying to wipe it off, but even without that, rust grows on steal like a spider web and is easy to diferenciate.

 

[porkchop01]

Originally Posted By: motorguy222
Originally Posted By: webfors
The adbv and leaf spring don't seal against the center tube because they weren't meant to. They seal against the end cap which is bonded to the media. The center tube is just there to give the media some backing and to prevent the media from entering the oil passages should it tear itself a hole... a-la-ecore.



While Fram may not be the best,the above post is correct.

The filter media is bonded/glued to the fiber endcaps and the metal center tube is to help support the media and keep it from collapsing.

I have not used a Fram in years but I used to use them more than any other filter and may have used them and them alone at one point.I never had any problems with them and never had any engine problems that I know of.Fram may not be the best but I dont think that they are the engine destroying filters that some make them out to be.

Are there better filters?,some will say yes.

Are there worse filters?,some will say yes.E-Cores in reality have a similar construction as far as the end caps.The Fram does have a better media support compared to the E-Core's plastic/nylon cage which is quite open.

Are they as bad as some say?

No,probably not,if they were,cars would be sitting on the sides of the road because of engine damage.

While there have been failures with Fram,are the failure rates any higher than any other filter? Probably not.If you take the huge number of Frams that are sold each year and compare their actual failure rate to others,they most likely will about the same.

While their failure rate may seem high,the high amount of Frams that are sold will make their failures seem higher than other filters.

What about all the failure's that go unoticed? Ther isnt very many people that cut filters open to find out if they failed.

 

[goodtimes]

Looking at the pic again and reading the post again, I see what you guys are talking about. The oil can go through the gaps,holes between the center tube and spring. When using metal endcaps, the endcap seals the hole better, so the spring has a nice flat pad to seal on. That makes more sense now, and the Fram engineer should appear to try and explain this one.

Still, having no endcaps and a gasket to the center tube, like cartridge filters have, would give an even better seal. I notice some have orings, some have cork, etc right at the center tube.

If the Fram center tube was nicely finished on the end to accept the spring indentation tightly, that would be a lot better.

I assume this applies to the TG as well, which apparently has nicer media but the same construction. Maybe Honda missed this detail when they went to Fram.

 

[motorguy222]

Originally Posted By: porkchop01
What about all the failure's that go unoticed? Ther isnt very many people that cut filters open to find out if they failed. [/quote]

This same logic would apply to any other filter as well.How many ST,Denso,WIX,Champ and Purolator/Bosch filters fail but are not cut open and no one knows?

As far as the filter not sealing at the spring end because of the center tube,the same should apply to the ST/E-Core filter.The ST/E-Core has a plastic/nylon center tube and a type of fiber end caps that are supposed to seal in a similar way that Frams do but some think that the ST/E-Core is made better.

 

[widman]

If they only made the hole in the cardboard 1/4" smaller and centered it, they would have a seal. Not perfect, but what went through the cardboard would filter itself.