Amsoil Two Stroke Oil Applications - Q & ***

[TooSlick]

I spent about thirty minutes sorting this out with Amsoil tech services ....

For all TC-W3 applications, either oil injected or pre-mix, "AIO" is preferred. You can also use the S2000 if you run the boat at full throttle for hours on end, as in competitive bass fishing or offshore saltwater use....However, AIO is formulated to burn cleanly even with lots of slow trolling use.

For engines using exhaust power valves, ie JASO FC applications, the new Interceptor oil is preferred. This includes most snowmobile and PWC applications and most two stroke motorcycle applications. It also includes jetboats w/ "Rotax" engines.

Note: Folks were using AIO and TCR in these applications, neither of which was ideal. The Interceptor formulation is super high detergency to keep the exhaust power valves clean.

For highly modified racing, two stroke engines only, the Series 2000 is preferred. The recommended mix ratio is 50:1, even if your name is Mike LaRocco (or Blano)

For all air cooled, high rpm, two stroke engines like chainsaws, trimmers, blowers, the 100:1 premix oil - mixed at 100:1 - is preferred. If you mix five gallons at a time, simply use 8 ounces of oil - this yields a ratio of approx 85:1. The 100:1 uses a much higher molecular weight basestock than the three Amsoil Injector oils, and little or no solvent, hence the very lean mixture ratio. The 100:1 is an ISO EGD formulation ....

If you have any questions, call me - I get tired of typing! If I'm not in, leave a message and I will call you back.

Tooslick
Dixie synthetics

[ February 15, 2004, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[cousincletus]

Thanx for the info.

 

[Hasbeen]

And they ALL work VERY well too!!

Hasbeen

 

[blano]

As usual Amsoil's recomendations seem to be made by the marketing department and not the tech department. Using series 200 in a outboard used under the conditions descibed above will lead to problems. Amsoil doesnt seem to understand that outboards have applictaion specific additive packages. Further I doubt 100:1 will meet egd specs as parts of the test are run at 10:1. all that high molecular weight base oil will not combust leading to failure of the deposit test and will not burn completley leading to failure of the smoke test.

quote:

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For highly modified racing, two stroke engines only, the Series 2000 is preferred. The recommended mix ratio is 50:1, even if your name is Mike LaRocco (or Blano)

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I would bet money that Mike isnt runnign a 50:1 ratio. The MX tuners in the know run 32:1 ratio or better in mx bikes.

[ December 30, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: blano ]

 

[Ron Jeremy]

quote:

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Originally posted by blano:
As usual Amsoil's recomendations seem to be made by the marketing department and not the tech department. Using series 200 in a outboard used under the conditions descibed above will lead to problems. Amsoil doesnt seem to understand that outboards have applictaion specific additive packages. Further I doubt 100:1 will meet egd specs as parts of the test are run at 10:1. all that high molecular weight base oil will not combust leading to failure of the deposit test and will not burn completley leading to failure of the smoke test.

quote:

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For highly modified racing, two stroke engines only, the Series 2000 is preferred. The recommended mix ratio is 50:1, even if your name is Mike LaRocco (or Blano)

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I would bet money that Mike isnt runnign a 50:1 ratio. The MX tuners in the know run 32:1 ratio or better in mx bikes.

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Lot's of speculation in this post, ie. You doubt that 100:1 will meet egd specs, you doubt that Mike Larocco runs 50:1 in his bikes. Care to cite a specific example where Amsoil's 2-cycle oils have lead to problems? If not this constant, shrill "attack" Amsoil rant is growing quite, yawwwwn, tired. Say what you will about their selling practices,but I've yet to see a sub-standard product come from them.

 

[Hasbeen]

Blano knows more about 2 cycle oil than anyone I`ve ever been in contact with, But his constant critisism of Amsoil is getting quite annoying! I do however understand where he is coming from, Amsoil won`t spend the money to certifie some of there oils and it bugs me also, and I am a Dealer!

He`s always saying that there oils will not meet the specs they (Amsoil)say it will! I`ll tell you one thing, Old Al Amitusio wouldn`t put a product out there that wouldn`t do what he says it will do! I use and have used the 2 cycle oils and many other products of theres for more that 25+ years with NO disapointments! I guess us Amsoil users are just going to have to stick together!

Food for thought:

Standard TC-W3 oils are not to be used in an oil injected engine! Why, because they are too thick to work properly, so they are mixed with solvents to allow them to flow better!

So, with that said, Blano mentioned that the Mobil MX synthetic oil can be used in injection systems!

Buy saying that, that means that if he mixes at 32;1 he is closer to a 60 to one ratio!

Amsoil Injector oil has the same type of solvent added to there oil to allow it to be used with injector systems too, they recomend 50:1 if you use premix so I would venture to say it applys to the Mobil oil also! So, he is actually mixing leaner on oil than he thinks he is!

OK, Lets hear it!!

Hasbeen

 

[blano]

quote:

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Lot's of speculation in this post, ie. You doubt that 100:1 will meet egd specs, you

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High molecular weight base stocks do not combust cleanly. This is not speculation, but fact. In order to pass the egd standard the oils must pass certain bench tests. One test requires a oil to be run at a 10:1 ratio in a low load, constant throttle generator engine and be tested for smoke. The deposit test is also ran at 10:1. I think even the most jaded, amsoil underwear sporting salesman would admit 100:1 would not perform well in test like this. Just another of the lack of credibilty that amsoil displasy in the hawking of their products.Amsoil= 0 credibility.

quote:

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Amsoil rant is growing quite, yawwwwn,

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I am groing really tired of Amsoils misleading claims and outright deceptions when it comes to selling their products.

quote:

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yet to see a sub-standard product come from them.

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Their two cycle oils in particular are all outperformed for less money. I cant say with the crankcas oils as the benifits of CC oil are much harder to determin.

quote:

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Standard TC-W3 oils are not to be used in an oil injected engine!

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Thats utter non sense. TCW3 oils must be of a viscosity range that injector suitable. This is part of the certification.

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Buy saying that, that means that if he mixes at 32;1 he is closer to a 60 to one ratio

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What in the world are you talking about? If you are sayint that Mobil has more solvent than Amsoil? You would be dead wrong if you are. It has less solvent than all of amsoil oils besides maybe 100:1. I have used mx2t in injector app(though not reccomended) because it has exceptional cold flow charachteristics and a very high viscosity index. Higher than all of amsoils oils.

quote:

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theres for more that 25+ years with NO disapointments!

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I guess some people just have higher expectaions than others.

[ January 02, 2004, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: blano ]

 

[TooSlick]

I think the recommendations are quite clear, in terms of the best Amsoil formulation for a particular application. One reason I posted this is that I was confused about these products and applications, so I knew my customers were.

As I mentioned, the S2000 is NOT the first choice for TC-W3 applications, unless you run the engine extremely hard (it won't burn cleanly enough). As for the 100:1 oil, it burns extremely clean at that ratio. I was out with my 2 stroke, Troy Built tiller yesterday in the front field down below my house and was running the 100:1 premix in it; tilling up my garden plot for next year (it was 60F in Alabama). This engine calls for a 24:1 mix - yet works perfectly with the 100:1 oil. In fact it runs better with the 100:1 oil than it does with the S2000; mixed @ 50:1.

I have customer who have used the 100:1 stuff in small outboards for years with excellent results. My father in law disconnected the oil injection system on the 175 hp Merc on his old bassboat, so he could premix and use the 100:1. It provides excellent piston scuffing protection and you can run the same spark plugs year after year w/ no fouling.

FWIW, a survey in "Motocross Action" magazine indicated that Amsoil is now the #1 non-factory, synthetic two stroke oil for motorcycles in terms of national sales. Must be all those dis-satisfied customers - LOL!

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
(256) 882-0768

 

[blano]

quote:

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As I mentioned, the S2000 is NOT the first choice for TC-W3 applications, unless you run the engine extremely hard

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The reason non tcw3 oils should not be used in outboards has nothing to do with burning cleanly. It has to do with ash buildup on the heads,plugs, and ports causing pre ignition. This is especially bothersome in applications like bass boats that are run at wfo throttle for long periods. Another example of Amsoil making poor reccomendations.

quote:

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I have customer who have used the 100:1 stuff in small outboards for years with excellent results. My father in law disconnected the oil injection system on the 175 hp Merc on his old bassboat, so he could premix and use the 100:1. It provides excellent piston scuffing protection and you can run the same spark plugs year after year w/ no fouling.

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Big deal. Most peopel dont run a outboard enought to be able to tell any differance. Increased wwear happens at a slow rate and is not imediatly apparent. Most bass boat guys are using MORE oil now as the less oil is better fad has went down hill since the late seventies. BTW I have the saem plugs in certain engines for years. ThThe boat motors at my lodge never foul plugs and that is with them using a tcw3 mineral oil. One of these motors also sees more use in a season than most outboards do in a decade or more.

quote:

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FWIW, a survey in "Motocross Action" magazine indicated that Amsoil is now the #1 non-factory, synthetic two stroke oil for motorcycles in terms of national sales. Must be all those dis-satisfied customers - LOL!

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Thats the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. MXA is widely acknowledged for having no journalistic integraty. The frequently print total BS about products from companys that advertise with them. Have you ever seen one of their so called "shootouts"? Further the MXA guys are the most technicly ignorant group of people I have ever seen. The frequantly print stuff that is so laughable its insane. I can tell you one thing. Prior to the Amsoil/Factory connection team no one used amsoil(very few). After the team was formed Amsoil did get some exposer in the mx industry and a few people use it, but there are many brands that are much more popular and easier to get. Maxima, Belray, Klotz, Silkolene, Yamalube, Honda hp2, Motul, Champion and the list goes on. I have never seen Amsoil sold at any MX shop I have been in. I would say Amsoils enjoys much more market share in the snowmobile segment of the market, but has very little market share when it comes to the MX segment.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Blano,

You've got your theory down quite nicely, but again, can you offer an anecdote or even a third hand story about Amsoil's 2-cycle oils causing the problems that you are speculating about? Do you have problem with Esso or Quaker State recommending a 50:1 ratio with their garbage petro oils?

 

[blano]

I have seen engines run on series 2000 @ 50:1 that looked like crap. I have also challenged anyone to show me pics from a Amsoil run engine, but I have never seen any. Amsoil isnt absolute garbage, but there are much better products out there that cost less money.
BTW Esso makes a decent semi syn tcw3 boat oil and a semi syn iso egd oil. I have used both.

Tooslick, I recentyl purchased some Amsoil interceptor to test. I got it for $7 per quart and bought four gallons total. I will be posting the results. sometime in late Feb.

 

[Cujet]

I have used Amsoil products with great results. I have also used Amsoil products with less than stellar results, my turbo Miata among them (It is really tough on oil).

The solvent dilemma is a non issue, period. I tried using a fluidized bath to evaporate the solvent out of Mobil 1 MX2t without luck. The assumption is that the oil has Stoddard solvent added.

My point is that the Amsoil people often make claims without the actual facts, reasons and logical arguments required to substantiate the claimed results. Using such tactics would lead one to conclude that much of what Amsoil marketing says would have to be regarded as HYPE.

We all understand that a certain small amount of advertising hype is common in the industry.

The facts still remain; engines have a certain load on each component. Lubrication requirements can be calculated and are properly calculated and addressed by the manufacturer in the great majority of the cases. Two strokes included. It can also be said that most two stroke engines have a predictable lifespan.

Using oil designed for a very high load application in a low load application, even if diluted to 100 to 1 makes no sense. Ask the manufacturer, and in particular an engineer. I'll bet the manufacturer will know which oil works well. Stay within the recommended oil type.

Chris

 

[wulimaster]

quote:

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Originally posted by blano:
Tooslick, I recentyl purchased some Amsoil interceptor to test. I got it for $7 per quart and bought four gallons total. I will be posting the results. sometime in late Feb.

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What vehicles are you planning to run the interceptor oil in?

 

[blano]

02 Polaris xc700 snowmobile.

 

[TooSlick]

I understand there is some price gouging going on with the Amsoil Interceptor oil and some places are charging $39.95/gallon for the stuff. I suppose this is still less expensive than some of the bombardier synthetics, but suggested retail is $27.00/gallon. If I was to mix any Amsoil formulation @ 32:1, it would be the Interceptor oil. I don't think you'll get the S2000 to burn clean with that ratio ....

I'd agree that the S2000 is not ideal for recreational use - this is precisely why Amsoil came out with the Interceptor oil. From what I understand, they are also introducing another purpose built ,two stroke oil this year. I'd expect that to be an improved TC-W3 product for DFI, high performance outboard motors....

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics

 

[blano]

quote:

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I'd expect that to be an improved TC-W3 product for DFI, high performance outboard motors....

Tooslick

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If they do its not goiung to be a tcw3 oil. Asless additives just dont cut it in a high heat, DI outboard.

 

[TooSlick]

Actually, none of the current Amsoil two stroke formulations are ashless chemistries, although some of the advertising copy still says so ....That's a holdover from the days when leaded fuel was still being used in outboard motors.

If you look at the TC-W3 performance tests, there is no explicit requirement that the formulation be ashless. Since esters burn and combust very cleanly, you can have some metallic adds in a synthetic two stoke and still meet the test limits for deposits.

 

[blano]

quote:

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If you look at the TC-W3 performance tests, there is no explicit requirement that the formulation be ashless.

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This is simply not true and if Amsoil fed you this info its another example of their lack of compatancy.The tcw3 standard specificaly specs ashless formulations for environmental reasons. The tcw3 spec is a formualtion spec as well as a performance one. The NMMA also sets quit a few other physical properties like flashpoint and miscability. BTW Ted, I believ you to be a reputable person. do soem research on your own outside of the tripe that Amsoil tells you. I am starting to think their so called tech department is staffed by HS dropouts.

 

[blano]

Ted, here is something for you to read. http://www.spectro-oils.com/faqs.htm

 

[Mike_dup1]

Here is some info I recently received:

AMSOIL Synthetic High Performance INTERCEPTOR 2 Cycle Oil (AIT) is a new addition to our 2 cycle product line. It fits in between AMSOIL Synthetic 2 Cycle Injector Oil (AIO) and AMSOIL Synthetic 2 Cycle Racing Oil (TCR). The main target for this product is snow machines with exhaust power valves and also personal watercraft. The TCR is still recommended for racing machines.

The common perception is that if a product says racing on it that it is better. This is not always the case – especially with two cycle oils. The heavier racing oil may not combust properly at low rpm use. This can cause fouling and deposit build up. If you are using TCR and it works well, that’s fine, but AIT is super friendly to power valves in recreational machines.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]