Originally Posted By: BFrank
No response from the folks at Amsoil yet.
Hopefully Pablo or Gary will comment soon~
No response from the folks at Amsoil yet.
Hopefully Pablo or Gary will comment soon~
Amsoil 0W-30 & EaO Filters in 2 Nissan's-NOT GOOD!
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Originally Posted By: BFrank
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I don't know, but after looking at the reports a couple of times I think the SSO perfomed very well in both vehicles...not much wear at all. Can you extend your OCI even further? Maybe. But I would want more information (TAN, NIT, OXI).
Oil filters are easy to experiment with. No need to go with the AMSOIL again, just try something else. But if it loaded up the AMSOIL that fast, you might be wise to change filters mid-OCI on any attempt to do extended OCI's.
I think his concern is the low TBN numbers, and the fact that this oil is touted as a 25k oil.
Yup! That is the trick. I should have been able to easily run the oil AND filter for 25K and that was no where near close to being a good thing to do to my motor.
No response from the folks at Amsoil yet.
Since Amsoil stopped selling the EaO13 filter that I am currently using (the one rated for 25K) I have switched back to the OEM filter which I should be able to run up to 7K.
How many months was this in service? Please keep in mind that this is also a ONE YEAR rated oil and SSO would be a 35k oil. Find anyone who actually does 25k-35k in one year is more remarkable than the one year limit.
The wear is fine, the flash point is fine. The visc slid and the insolubles are high.
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I don't know, but after looking at the reports a couple of times I think the SSO perfomed very well in both vehicles...not much wear at all. Can you extend your OCI even further? Maybe. But I would want more information (TAN, NIT, OXI).
Oil filters are easy to experiment with. No need to go with the AMSOIL again, just try something else. But if it loaded up the AMSOIL that fast, you might be wise to change filters mid-OCI on any attempt to do extended OCI's.
I think his concern is the low TBN numbers, and the fact that this oil is touted as a 25k oil.
Yup! That is the trick. I should have been able to easily run the oil AND filter for 25K and that was no where near close to being a good thing to do to my motor.
No response from the folks at Amsoil yet.
Since Amsoil stopped selling the EaO13 filter that I am currently using (the one rated for 25K) I have switched back to the OEM filter which I should be able to run up to 7K.
How many months was this in service? Please keep in mind that this is also a ONE YEAR rated oil and SSO would be a 35k oil. Find anyone who actually does 25k-35k in one year is more remarkable than the one year limit.
The wear is fine, the flash point is fine. The visc slid and the insolubles are high.
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I don't know, but after looking at the reports a couple of times I think the SSO perfomed very well in both vehicles...not much wear at all. Can you extend your OCI even further? Maybe. But I would want more information (TAN, NIT, OXI).
Oil filters are easy to experiment with. No need to go with the AMSOIL again, just try something else. But if it loaded up the AMSOIL that fast, you might be wise to change filters mid-OCI on any attempt to do extended OCI's.
I think his concern is the low TBN numbers, and the fact that this oil is touted as a 25k oil.
UP to 25,000.miles
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I don't know, but after looking at the reports a couple of times I think the SSO perfomed very well in both vehicles...not much wear at all. Can you extend your OCI even further? Maybe. But I would want more information (TAN, NIT, OXI).
Oil filters are easy to experiment with. No need to go with the AMSOIL again, just try something else. But if it loaded up the AMSOIL that fast, you might be wise to change filters mid-OCI on any attempt to do extended OCI's.
I think his concern is the low TBN numbers, and the fact that this oil is touted as a 25k oil.
UP to 25,000.miles
It's just ok for a boutique high cost oil. Sometimes engines and oils just don't mingle as well as we want them to. I'm sure the Amsoil 0w30 is a fine product (seen some great UOA's with it), but better results have been posted with other oils in this engine.
Maybe TBN would have held for a few thousand more miles...
Not a horrible report, but I think you expected more bang for the buck with this oil and filter combo.
Maybe TBN would have held for a few thousand more miles...
Not a horrible report, but I think you expected more bang for the buck with this oil and filter combo.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
UP to 25,000.miles
Yea I hear you but I ran it for just under 7 months and 7K miles. That to me is a long way from 12 months or 25K miles.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
How many months was this in service? Please keep in mind that this is also a ONE YEAR rated oil and SSO would be a 35k oil. Find anyone who actually does 25k-35k in one year is more remarkable than the one year limit.
The wear is fine, the flash point is fine. The visc slid and the insolubles are high.
See the attachments links in the posts above for all of the details. Gary do you actually work for Amsoil? I sent via the website a message on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 at 16:59:20 and still have no response. Can you assist?
Originally Posted By: coachditka
It's just ok for a boutique high cost oil. Sometimes engines and oils just don't mingle as well as we want them to. I'm sure the Amsoil 0w30 is a fine product (seen some great UOA's with it), but better results have been posted with other oils in this engine.
Maybe TBN would have held for a few thousand more miles...
Not a horrible report, but I think you expected more bang for the buck with this oil and filter combo.
I guess that is really what it comes down to. With the straight up high cost of the oil and then add to it shipping and it's very expensive stuff. If customer service sends me some free oil and a free filter I will feel better.
UP to 25,000.miles
Yea I hear you but I ran it for just under 7 months and 7K miles. That to me is a long way from 12 months or 25K miles.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
How many months was this in service? Please keep in mind that this is also a ONE YEAR rated oil and SSO would be a 35k oil. Find anyone who actually does 25k-35k in one year is more remarkable than the one year limit.
The wear is fine, the flash point is fine. The visc slid and the insolubles are high.
See the attachments links in the posts above for all of the details. Gary do you actually work for Amsoil? I sent via the website a message on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 at 16:59:20 and still have no response. Can you assist?
Originally Posted By: coachditka
It's just ok for a boutique high cost oil. Sometimes engines and oils just don't mingle as well as we want them to. I'm sure the Amsoil 0w30 is a fine product (seen some great UOA's with it), but better results have been posted with other oils in this engine.
Maybe TBN would have held for a few thousand more miles...
Not a horrible report, but I think you expected more bang for the buck with this oil and filter combo.
I guess that is really what it comes down to. With the straight up high cost of the oil and then add to it shipping and it's very expensive stuff. If customer service sends me some free oil and a free filter I will feel better.
IIRC severe service for that oil is 1 year or 17,500 miles what ever comes first. Good on you for checking in advance. I would not run that oil for that long under severe conditions. I'd go to 2 6 month OCIs with M1, PP, PU, Edge, or another good synthetic oil, and use a Pure One or M1 filter. JMO
The original post has the correct updated info/links so I've edited out everything else so we have it correct for others to view.
Bill
Bill
Originally Posted By: tig1
I wonder about TBN myself. A friend has a 99 Silverado with 280K+ with 15-20K OCIs. He uses M1 5-30 and only changes the oil filter when he changes oil. The engine runs great as in no sign of wear, and appears to be clean. No doubt the TBN is shot but doesn't seem to have affect on the life of the engine. Crazy!
Does he do any UOA in between the changes? My goal was to only change the filter and oil at the same time. My thought is if I crawl my big a$$ up under the truck I'm swapping everything for fresh.
You say it appears to be clean but man that would scare the [censored] out of me.
I wonder about TBN myself. A friend has a 99 Silverado with 280K+ with 15-20K OCIs. He uses M1 5-30 and only changes the oil filter when he changes oil. The engine runs great as in no sign of wear, and appears to be clean. No doubt the TBN is shot but doesn't seem to have affect on the life of the engine. Crazy!
Does he do any UOA in between the changes? My goal was to only change the filter and oil at the same time. My thought is if I crawl my big a$$ up under the truck I'm swapping everything for fresh.
You say it appears to be clean but man that would scare the [censored] out of me.
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Quote:
I sent via the website a message on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 at 16:59:20 and still have no response. Can you assist?
It's the same tech line that I'd be emailing to. Who's your dealer?
Quote:
See the attachments links in the posts above for all of the details.
They work now? Didn't we get a series of errors? Anyway 7/7k.
Run it out to 1 year. Test. Blackstone uses the protocol that produces the lower results.
Originally Posted By: Billy007
I thought Amsoil performed well according to the UOA. I don't know much about Nissan engines. On my Toyota, I have to change the oil filter every 5k-6k miles. Some Japanese engines don't respond too well to extended OCI.
I agree. Aside from the TBN reading low, what's the problem? I see no evidence of acid etching in the numbers.
Some Asian designs appear to run dirty.
I sent via the website a message on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 at 16:59:20 and still have no response. Can you assist?
It's the same tech line that I'd be emailing to. Who's your dealer?
Quote:
See the attachments links in the posts above for all of the details.
They work now? Didn't we get a series of errors? Anyway 7/7k.
Run it out to 1 year. Test. Blackstone uses the protocol that produces the lower results.
Originally Posted By: Billy007
I thought Amsoil performed well according to the UOA. I don't know much about Nissan engines. On my Toyota, I have to change the oil filter every 5k-6k miles. Some Japanese engines don't respond too well to extended OCI.
I agree. Aside from the TBN reading low, what's the problem? I see no evidence of acid etching in the numbers.
Some Asian designs appear to run dirty.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
It's the same tech line that I'd be emailing to. Who's your dealer?
I'm an Amsoil Preferred Customer
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
They work now? Didn't we get a series of errors? Anyway 7/7k.
The links are now fixed in the first post. Take a look.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Run it out to 1 year. Test. Blackstone uses the protocol that produces the lower results.
The oil probably could have made it to 1 year it's the filter that failed me.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some Asian designs appear to run dirty.
That's an interesting statement. I'm a dumb computer guy so please help me understand. I've owned this truck since new brought her home with 17 miles on it and have taken immaculate care of it since day one. What makes it "dirty"?
It's the same tech line that I'd be emailing to. Who's your dealer?
I'm an Amsoil Preferred Customer
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
They work now? Didn't we get a series of errors? Anyway 7/7k.
The links are now fixed in the first post. Take a look.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Run it out to 1 year. Test. Blackstone uses the protocol that produces the lower results.
The oil probably could have made it to 1 year it's the filter that failed me.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Some Asian designs appear to run dirty.
That's an interesting statement. I'm a dumb computer guy so please help me understand. I've owned this truck since new brought her home with 17 miles on it and have taken immaculate care of it since day one. What makes it "dirty"?
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I'm an Amsoil Preferred Customer
..and as such you have a dealer that was assigned to you the moment you became a PC. He should have contacted you to introduce himself.
Quote:
The oil probably could have made it to 1 year it's the filter that failed me.
Well, it was discontinued for a reason ...
Quote:
I've owned this truck since new brought her home with 17 miles on it and have taken immaculate care of it since day one.
I'm sure you have ..and if doing so could clean up Asian engines, I think you could easily be a millionaire.
Quote:
What makes it "dirty"?
Just about every Asian design I've seen ...even if run exclusively on the highway, is loaded to varying degrees with fuel. I'm not sure what the designers had in mind, but it's apparent across a few manufacturers. It doesn't appear to effect the metal numbers. It does tend to degrade the flash point and reduce the visc.
In the case of something like Toyota's, (and apparently your Titan) it produces enough insolubles to choke the filter prematurely. That is the primary filter loading item. Combustion byproducts. In most engines you can go every other OEM OCI with a filter if you're using mileage as your OCI. The warm up miles are the same, but the additional mileage is way low on loading the filter. They're mostly hollow miles.
Not so with some engines.
I'm an Amsoil Preferred Customer
..and as such you have a dealer that was assigned to you the moment you became a PC. He should have contacted you to introduce himself.
Quote:
The oil probably could have made it to 1 year it's the filter that failed me.
Well, it was discontinued for a reason ...
Quote:
I've owned this truck since new brought her home with 17 miles on it and have taken immaculate care of it since day one.
I'm sure you have ..and if doing so could clean up Asian engines, I think you could easily be a millionaire.
Quote:
What makes it "dirty"?
Just about every Asian design I've seen ...even if run exclusively on the highway, is loaded to varying degrees with fuel. I'm not sure what the designers had in mind, but it's apparent across a few manufacturers. It doesn't appear to effect the metal numbers. It does tend to degrade the flash point and reduce the visc.
In the case of something like Toyota's, (and apparently your Titan) it produces enough insolubles to choke the filter prematurely. That is the primary filter loading item. Combustion byproducts. In most engines you can go every other OEM OCI with a filter if you're using mileage as your OCI. The warm up miles are the same, but the additional mileage is way low on loading the filter. They're mostly hollow miles.
Not so with some engines.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
...and as such you have a dealer that was assigned to you the moment you became a PC. He should have contacted you to introduce himself.
Ohh yea someone called me but that was like 2 years ago. I haven't spoken to him since the day he called me. I just go to the website and order what I need.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, it was discontinued for a reason ...
Good call on their part I guess. Hopefully Monday someone will get in touch with me and make that right.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Just about every Asian design I've seen ...even if run exclusively on the highway, is loaded to varying degrees with fuel. I'm not sure what the designers had in mind, but it's apparent across a few manufacturers. It doesn't appear to effect the metal numbers. It does tend to degrade the flash point and reduce the visc.
In the case of something like Toyota's, (and apparently your Titan) it produces enough insolubles to choke the filter prematurely. That is the primary filter loading item. Combustion byproducts. In most engines you can go every other OEM OCI with a filter if you're using mileage as your OCI. The warm up miles are the same, but the additional mileage is way low on loading the filter. They're mostly hollow miles.
Not so with some engines.
Again dumb computer guy here I have two more questions.
1. Why is the guy in this post running Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 and he has 1/2 the insolubles that I do after the same mileage?
2. You say that "is loaded to varying degrees with fuel" but if you look at the UOA the fuel is at <0.5% that is 1.5% less than the Blackstone avg.
...and as such you have a dealer that was assigned to you the moment you became a PC. He should have contacted you to introduce himself.
Ohh yea someone called me but that was like 2 years ago. I haven't spoken to him since the day he called me. I just go to the website and order what I need.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, it was discontinued for a reason ...
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Just about every Asian design I've seen ...even if run exclusively on the highway, is loaded to varying degrees with fuel. I'm not sure what the designers had in mind, but it's apparent across a few manufacturers. It doesn't appear to effect the metal numbers. It does tend to degrade the flash point and reduce the visc.
In the case of something like Toyota's, (and apparently your Titan) it produces enough insolubles to choke the filter prematurely. That is the primary filter loading item. Combustion byproducts. In most engines you can go every other OEM OCI with a filter if you're using mileage as your OCI. The warm up miles are the same, but the additional mileage is way low on loading the filter. They're mostly hollow miles.
Not so with some engines.
Again dumb computer guy here I have two more questions.
1. Why is the guy in this post running Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 and he has 1/2 the insolubles that I do after the same mileage?
2. You say that "is loaded to varying degrees with fuel" but if you look at the UOA the fuel is at <0.5% that is 1.5% less than the Blackstone avg.
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Let me preface that we're remote viewing here. While we see no other indications besides insolubles, we can't go on the assumption that your Titan is in identical tune as the other test subject. Tune may not show up as lost fuel economy with all factors considered. I'm not intimate with your engine, so I cannot speculate what this might be.
Insolubles are combustion byproducts contained in the blow by and oxidation of the oil. Oxidation numbers would have been valuable here.
Quote:
1. Why is the guy in this post running Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 and he has 1/2 the insolubles that I do after the same mileage?
1) His mileage is over 4 months. Assuming that we're dealing exclusively with combustion byproducts AND assuming a 2 event daily driver, he's done 1750 miles to your 1000. If that were the singular origin, he would have to go 7 months to experience the same starting events.
I'd have a hard time figuring how one could manage to trump the single warm up event and manage any mileage.
Maybe I can say this in a way that others can understand. Let's say you managed a really oddball daily driving routine where you could manage to keep almost every mile in fuel enrichment. Let's say you drove 2 miles ..stopped for a half hour ..drove 3 miles ..stopped for a half hour ..3 more ..sat for 2 hours ...5 more and sat for another hour. Then on the weekend did a 100-300 mile trip.
OR if you did something like a paper route where the fuel passing through the engine was way out of whack with what was showing up on the odometer. Make it a suburban route so that you're never in closed loop.
but no matter what the origin of the insolubles, it is not a problem with the oil. It is a problem with your Titan or the service that you're subjecting it too.
Next year at the same time, just so it goes through the winter, use any oil other than SSO (Ultra, M1 0w-40, whatever you consider a "good oil" for 7m/7k) ..and use a PureOne. Run it for 7/7k and see what it looks like. Assuming nothing changes in usage or mechanical status, what do you think the results will be?
Now please keep in mind that you're focusing on this narrow set of indicators and throwing out the whole report. You've got no indication that the engine is experiencing stress here ...at least in terms of wear metals due to acid etching or unfiltered abrasives.
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2. You say that "is loaded to varying degrees with fuel" but if you look at the UOA the fuel is at div>
I would have been more accurate to state combustion byproducts due to (pressumed) fuel management design (which may or may not be the case). You don't show too much loss of flashpoint. Not enough to cover the visc loss.
Again, that leads us back to the engine or how you operate it.
Insolubles are combustion byproducts contained in the blow by and oxidation of the oil. Oxidation numbers would have been valuable here.
Quote:
1. Why is the guy in this post running Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 and he has 1/2 the insolubles that I do after the same mileage?
1) His mileage is over 4 months. Assuming that we're dealing exclusively with combustion byproducts AND assuming a 2 event daily driver, he's done 1750 miles to your 1000. If that were the singular origin, he would have to go 7 months to experience the same starting events.
I'd have a hard time figuring how one could manage to trump the single warm up event and manage any mileage.
Maybe I can say this in a way that others can understand. Let's say you managed a really oddball daily driving routine where you could manage to keep almost every mile in fuel enrichment. Let's say you drove 2 miles ..stopped for a half hour ..drove 3 miles ..stopped for a half hour ..3 more ..sat for 2 hours ...5 more and sat for another hour. Then on the weekend did a 100-300 mile trip.
OR if you did something like a paper route where the fuel passing through the engine was way out of whack with what was showing up on the odometer. Make it a suburban route so that you're never in closed loop.
but no matter what the origin of the insolubles, it is not a problem with the oil. It is a problem with your Titan or the service that you're subjecting it too.
Next year at the same time, just so it goes through the winter, use any oil other than SSO (Ultra, M1 0w-40, whatever you consider a "good oil" for 7m/7k) ..and use a PureOne. Run it for 7/7k and see what it looks like. Assuming nothing changes in usage or mechanical status, what do you think the results will be?
Now please keep in mind that you're focusing on this narrow set of indicators and throwing out the whole report. You've got no indication that the engine is experiencing stress here ...at least in terms of wear metals due to acid etching or unfiltered abrasives.
Quote:
2. You say that "is loaded to varying degrees with fuel" but if you look at the UOA the fuel is at div>
I would have been more accurate to state combustion byproducts due to (pressumed) fuel management design (which may or may not be the case). You don't show too much loss of flashpoint. Not enough to cover the visc loss.
Again, that leads us back to the engine or how you operate it.
Gary appears pretty thorough here.
I'm having a hard time seeing where the oil is a problem or the filter. Often product quality appears indiscernible from environment and vehicle situation to a lot of folks.
I'm having a hard time seeing where the oil is a problem or the filter. Often product quality appears indiscernible from environment and vehicle situation to a lot of folks.
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Let me state that I'm not impressed with the UOA. The metals are fine but something is "unright" to pull that much of beat down on the TBN and produce that level of insolubles in that span of time/miles. I have full confidence in the product and the filter (but will concede to the indefensible position that this EaO filter finds itself in).
Is there anything unusual to how these units are used? 1000/month would normally reflect a rather common usage profile.
Using some common oil (that would be 100% OEM approved), how would one expect to make 6 months?
Is there anything unusual to how these units are used? 1000/month would normally reflect a rather common usage profile.
Using some common oil (that would be 100% OEM approved), how would one expect to make 6 months?
I'm going to go out on a limb here.....
I have a feeling (feelings are not science) that if you run this oil with a Mobil 1 M1-110 or a Fram XG7317 you will have improved results. Both filters can easily handle 10k on them.
Also, I didn't notice...is your engine a flex fuel? I don't know enough about ethanol, but know enough to say that it's not that great for our engines and can do a number on oil.
I have a feeling (feelings are not science) that if you run this oil with a Mobil 1 M1-110 or a Fram XG7317 you will have improved results. Both filters can easily handle 10k on them.
Also, I didn't notice...is your engine a flex fuel? I don't know enough about ethanol, but know enough to say that it's not that great for our engines and can do a number on oil.
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I would tend to agree on the XG7317. Fram (nor Wix for that matter) place much emphasis on fine filtration. If you look at btancors comparison between M1 and EaO filters over 10k, you'll notice that it was around 10k when the EaO started to level off with the M1.
That is, the M1 has a tighter curve to it's efficiency rating.
btanchors tests
here, at 10k, the two filters appear to be doing the same job under the B-S "modeled" particle count method. @ 5k the performance of M1 was superior. Obviously M1 was loaded with all the particles that the EaO did not catch at that point in it's loading curve.
The EaO is geared to be a 25k/one year filter. Some of the Euro spec filters are designed for that length of service and longer. They do (mainly) with reasonable filtering ability and reinforced media and (typically) higher bypass valve settings.
That is, the M1 has a tighter curve to it's efficiency rating.
btanchors tests
here, at 10k, the two filters appear to be doing the same job under the B-S "modeled" particle count method. @ 5k the performance of M1 was superior. Obviously M1 was loaded with all the particles that the EaO did not catch at that point in it's loading curve.
The EaO is geared to be a 25k/one year filter. Some of the Euro spec filters are designed for that length of service and longer. They do (mainly) with reasonable filtering ability and reinforced media and (typically) higher bypass valve settings.
Both UOAs are way beyond normal as far as TBN for both and insolubles for the one. It makes no sense to me. It takes a lot of acid to knock down SSO's TBN that far and the OCIs were not long. The calcium in both samples looked normal so it's likely not the oil's fault. Future UOAs are a must to help figure out what's going on. In the meantime, make sure nothing is wrong with the engines.
Originally Posted By: JAG
Both UOAs are way beyond normal as far as TBN for both and insolubles for the one. It makes no sense to me. It takes a lot of acid to knock down SSO's TBN that far and the OCIs were not long. The calcium in both samples looked normal so it's likely not the oil's fault. Future UOAs are a must to help figure out what's going on. In the meantime, make sure nothing is wrong with the engines.
+1
Both UOAs are way beyond normal as far as TBN for both and insolubles for the one. It makes no sense to me. It takes a lot of acid to knock down SSO's TBN that far and the OCIs were not long. The calcium in both samples looked normal so it's likely not the oil's fault. Future UOAs are a must to help figure out what's going on. In the meantime, make sure nothing is wrong with the engines.
+1
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