Alarming preliminary results

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 14, 2003

Virgin Amsoil and virgin RedLine, dropped off at a lab. I have no official results but please join me in having a stroke when you see what the lab meister emailed me:
"It appears that
both the new Redline and Amsoil are a bit dirtier than expected for new oil.
They both have a Ferrous Particle Concentration of 4.1 and 4.4 ferrous
particles/mL is a bit higher than the suggested limit. For new oil, it is
usually 2 ferrous particles/mL. Could they have been contaminated? The
Amsoil new oil has red oxides (rust) in it as well as some low alloy steel
particles about 20 microns in size and a few other goodies such as
soot/carbon, dirt, etc.. I'm just wondering if these will be filtered out
before getting into your engine?
(pause on the quote here. Us folks on this forum are gonna be about as fussy as fussy can be about oil. I've never heard of filtering an oil between the bottle and the initial fill, have you?? OK, back to the copy-paste thang...)

The Redline new oil has particles in it
including some pretty nasty high alloy or stainless cutting wear (similar to
cuttings from a lathe). I'd say probably about 10 or so of these cuttings
particles in 3 mL of oil. Again..this is not typically seen in new oil, any
possibility of contamination?

As for the Used Redline...well, it appears
your engine is wearing pretty normal. No significant wear pattern seen.
I'll elaborate on it a little more in the report. That's what I have for
you for now.
END QUOTE. So, how did all this nasty stuff happen? Because it crossed the border? Because it has a shelf life of more than a week? Because it was in a garage / car / trunk for a month or a year? I don't want to say bull just yet but really folks I can't see that happening.
Please help, please post ideas.
Thanks!

Ken2 · Feb 15, 2003

Had to have happened in the production/transportation/pumping/storage/blending/packaging. Could not have happened while the oil was in the sealed quart container. Not good.

Ken

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 15, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Ken2:
Had to have happened in the production/transportation/pumping/storage/blending/packaging.

How on earth could this have happened? To two seperate virgin samples?

quote:

Could not have happened while the oil was in the sealed quart container.

I opened. I poured. I closed the cap. It sat a while. At no time did I go by a lathe and do stupid stuff like adding filings to the bottle...

quote:

Not good.

No kidding.
I'll be posting more. So much for the eternal debate, Amsoil AND RedLine, virgin, both flawed...

Terry · Feb 15, 2003

Rob-oil-nut, You got my attention on this one. This is baaad. Get your lab report and the production #'s off the bottles of both and contact Redline and Amsoil with your data.

On the Redline make sure the tech knows what RL is supposed to look like.

It has some pretty weird adds but not stainless steel filings, probably a mixing pipe thread connection mess.

They need to know and It's possible that they are putting out contaminated oils. It is not as unusual as you might think, but I am surprised that it would be these 2 companies having a problem.

Have the lab you used call oil companies if they blow you off when you call, I doubt they will.

Mixing facilities commonly cause this issue as can a digruntled mixing operation employee.

Also they need to know the micronic size of the Redline cuttings.

[ February 15, 2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]

Patman · Feb 15, 2003

What about the possibility that someone in the lab messed up? Perhaps either their machines are miscalibrated or maybe even it got contaminated there somehow?

It just seems strange that two totally different brands of oil would both be like this.

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 15, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
Rob-oil-nut, You got my attention on this one. This is baaad.

Yes it most certainly is.

quote:

On the Redline make sure the tech knows what RL is supposed to look like.[/QB]

I have seen nothing in terms of MSDS, that's part of the reason that I sent them vigin samples. I didn't know companies released that sort of info until after I dropped off the virgin sample, and that too was prior to me learning of this forum

The tech also emailed me with

quote:

What kind of filter are you using? What micron size?[/QB]

It was an Amsoil SDF20 for at least 6 months, any idea where I can get specs as to its micron size?

quote:

The production #'s off the bottles of both and contact Redline and Amsoil with your data. [/QB]

The tech drained the last of the Amsoil (that was the bottle that was poured in when I lost oil out the tailpipe. My first few postings are at http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000066 and
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000066#000004)
Far as I know that jug is in the trash. RedLine bottle, that can only be narrowed down to a few unfortunately.
I appreciate everyone's help!

Terry · Feb 15, 2003

Which lab ?

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
Which lab ?

The lab that I have used in the past is Toromont, Caterpillar certified. I am very tempted to send them samples, including virgin RedLine, 10 month / 17,000 KM used RedLine, and the used dino that I had in for a short time while I was waiting for the RedLine. The new lab, the one I dropped off the virgin samples that came back with the alarming (preliminary) results, is our power company.
(http://www.hydro.mb.ca/lab/index.shtml
but it's not a fantastic web page)

Terry · Feb 16, 2003

I question the accuracy of the power companies lab results, as I have never seen Amsoil or Redline with production/mixing contamination.

slider · Feb 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
I question the accuracy of the power companies lab results, as I have never seen Amsoil or Redline with production/mixing contamination.

I hope your judgement is correct here. That kind of contamination is pretty alarming.

TooSlick · Feb 16, 2003

Slider,

Amsoil samples every batch of oil that comes out of their plant. In eight years of doing oil analysis I've never seen baseline data that showed even the smallest amount of iron or other contaminents. If there was contamination of this batch run, it never would have left Superior ....In addition to this, Amsoil also sets aside all raw materials that come in and they are all tested to see if they meet the required specs. In the past they have shipped RR tanker cars full of raw materials back to suppliers that didn't measure up.

I can't speak for Redline, but they run a very tightly controlled operation as well in their CA blending plant.

TooSlick

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 16, 2003

Quite true. I have faith in the lab and the tech's credentials are quite impressive. But this is very very strange.
Good news, the box containing the used oil (I still have it) in my car also has bottles of RedLine, one of them really HAS to be the one I poured the virgin sample from. Chances are the other one is still sealed under the cap, I didn't check yet.
Thank you!

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 16, 2003

I have really been racking my brain trying to think of what might cause this, then a thought occurred to me. When ya take off the plastic cap, there is a foil cover that seals the mouth of the bottle. Also, when I broke that seal it was winter in each case, maybe in the cold and all I took a key from my pocket to break that seal. I have no clear recollection of either, whether I did or not. But even if I did, the keys are old enough that they wouldn't have fresh metal shavings dripping off of them. On one hand I'm really fussy about everything oil-related going just so, on the other, maybe I had a "not too bright" moment. Maybe I'm just trying to think of what would account for this.

I can't get what TooSlick said out of my mind: "In eight years of doing oil analysis I've never seen baseline data that showed even the smallest amount of iron or other contaminents."
Surely someone else could have used a key to pop the foil seal in eight years. What if you had a key in a virgin oil sample bottle overnight? That wouldn't screw up the results this bad, would it? I don't know THAT much about automotive tribology! I'm just trying to think of what would cause this.
Phew! I'm starting to sound like Fox Mulder, I need a good night's sleep...

satterfi · Feb 16, 2003

Another possible source of contamination is the empty plastic bottle before filling.

A major source of contamination in the beverage industry is from the empty containers.

The containers are transported, stored and handled with the lid off. There's plenty of opportunity for things to get into the bottles.

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by satterfi:
Another possible source of contamination is the empty plastic bottle before filling.

The bottle that gets filled at the factory, or the sample bottle that the lab uses?
Or both?
Again, what TooSlick said, 'not in 8 years'
How come this wouldn't have happened in 8 years of testing? Also I would think Amsoil, Redline, and others would randomly test virgin oil for quality control.
Perhaps the best thing to do is TRUNCATE (we have legitimate scientific reason to just shrug it off and make like it never happened, the results are too wierd and away from normality)
Is there a seconder to the motion?

MolaKule · Feb 17, 2003

I have been testing for about 20 years and I had seen this happen twice, once when I inadvertenly dropped some shavings into the sample bottle. I had drilled on the bench and shavings had been blown into the sample bottle. Didn't realize it until the lab sent me back this weird report. The other time was when the lab admitted IT had contaminated the sample from another customer's oil.

So either the lab drooped the ball or you had some contamination on your end.

Chris · Feb 17, 2003

I think Molakule just "secondered" it.

lubechick · Feb 17, 2003

Your best bet would be to send the lab "TRUE" Virgin samples of Redline and Amsoil without the seals broken. Especially if they weren't the ones to crack the seal. It is definitely not normal to see those types of particles in new oil. Any other comments?

rob-the-oil-nut · Feb 17, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by lubechick:
Your best bet would be to send the lab "TRUE" Virgin samples of Redline and Amsoil without the seals broken. Especially if they weren't the ones to crack the seal. It is definitely not normal to see those types of particles in new oil. Any other comments?

I declare the motion Seconded and thirded and passed

(we can always talk about it later)

I shall contact the lab and go there with a sealed bottle and ask that GREAT technician to handle the whole thing.
Within 100 miles of me and into oil? Golly, what are the odds? Ensure you get my email address!
THANKS!
Rob

Pablo · Feb 17, 2003

WOW I go up to BC to soak in the hot springs for a couple days and come back to this!!

I agree with lubechick, Dr. Kule, et al - it's TOTALLY suspicious they both had ferrous related "crud" in common. I could see if one 'ter the udder had stuff, but both??

Bad lab, bad bottles. Bad, bad, bad...go sit in the corner.

Resample, if possible.

[ February 17, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]