MolaKule
Staff member
After studying this site, I have learned..........little.
- Thread starter doitmyself
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Doug,quote:
Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi XS650
You said:
"OTOH, some filters and oils are best for no car.
Among the best and among the worst, it
is hard to discern a differance. But between the beat and the worst, the differances are more obvious."
I love it!!!
Regards
Hi
You're a cool dude! Why dontcha come down to Texas....I'll buy you a beer.......or is it be-ah!
Umm, I think one area where it is possible to see differences in oils is their consumption rate. Trial-and-error plus a bias toward heavier oils would, however, accomplish the same as a BitOG recommendation.
The whole consumption issue is very important for some of the cars I service, old ladies and dumb chicks who WILL NOT check or add their own oil for 6 months until I see them again. Reduced consumption can mean the difference between blowing an engine and mearly torturing it. Quickie Lube 5w30 WILL NOT persist in a VW 2.0l, I can tell you that from experience. I really did not have a clue about HDEOs before reading here and now use them at every opportunity. My mechanic used Castrol HDEO RX 15w40 in 100s of customer's VW cars for years, he is just a "stupid mechanic", I guess. I was, however using Chevron Supreme due to price, the fact it was NOT Mobil DCO and (ghasp) my own personal experience. (IOS-SYN, yay!)
On BitOG, I got info about the Euro specs and oils for my cars and see how manuals can, for example; suggest one (heavier) viscosity for our Austrailian buddys and another for CAFE/CARB-types working for Big Brother.
Anyway, you have to fit this all to YOUR own car. Oil needs can vary from the same car to another "identical" one as well as during it's aging process. ie: heavier for higher miles
quit complain'in and start chang'in
[ March 18, 2004, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
The whole consumption issue is very important for some of the cars I service, old ladies and dumb chicks who WILL NOT check or add their own oil for 6 months until I see them again. Reduced consumption can mean the difference between blowing an engine and mearly torturing it. Quickie Lube 5w30 WILL NOT persist in a VW 2.0l, I can tell you that from experience. I really did not have a clue about HDEOs before reading here and now use them at every opportunity. My mechanic used Castrol HDEO RX 15w40 in 100s of customer's VW cars for years, he is just a "stupid mechanic", I guess. I was, however using Chevron Supreme due to price, the fact it was NOT Mobil DCO and (ghasp) my own personal experience. (IOS-SYN, yay!)
On BitOG, I got info about the Euro specs and oils for my cars and see how manuals can, for example; suggest one (heavier) viscosity for our Austrailian buddys and another for CAFE/CARB-types working for Big Brother.
Anyway, you have to fit this all to YOUR own car. Oil needs can vary from the same car to another "identical" one as well as during it's aging process. ie: heavier for higher miles
quit complain'in and start chang'in
[ March 18, 2004, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Audi Junkie ]
Hi Last Z,
Thanks, I'll have 'em any way we call them XXXX (Fourex) but anywhere between light and dark brown will do just fine!!
Regards
Doug
[ March 18, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
Thanks, I'll have 'em any way we call them XXXX (Fourex) but anywhere between light and dark brown will do just fine!!
Regards
Doug
[ March 18, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]
TC said:
1) Get 10 well trained experienced engineers together to discuss everything they know about a subject such as the best lubrication for a given engine and you will get at least three different good answers, many of which will depend upon the assumed uses of the product.
2) Engineers do not write or specify what is in the owner's manuals. Manuals are written mostly by marketing and legal people. Sometime engineering information is followed and sometimes it is not.
3) Your view does nothing to explain why a Honda manual in Australia says something entirely different than a Honda manual for the same vehicle and engine when it is sold in North America.
4) As an obvious example of the failure in many, but not all, automobile recommended maintenance schedules: Many auto manufactuers do not list flushing the brake fluid as a routine maintenance item, while others list it as an every two year item (Volvo and VW for example). However, any brake system engineer or experienced brake mechanic will tell you that your brake system is going to last much longer with periodic flushing than it does without. Caliper and master cylinder replacement rates would drop well over 50% if car owners had this basic work done.
So, you can assume that you will get "acceptable" service life from your vehicle by just following the book. However, you are unlikely to get maximum service life or lowest overall ownership costs by doing so.
John
[ March 18, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: jthorner ]
TC, have you ever been an engineer in a large organization? I have, and I've been at various levels of engineering management. Your comments make me suspect that you have little actual knowledge about how the process really works.
1) Get 10 well trained experienced engineers together to discuss everything they know about a subject such as the best lubrication for a given engine and you will get at least three different good answers, many of which will depend upon the assumed uses of the product.
2) Engineers do not write or specify what is in the owner's manuals. Manuals are written mostly by marketing and legal people. Sometime engineering information is followed and sometimes it is not.
3) Your view does nothing to explain why a Honda manual in Australia says something entirely different than a Honda manual for the same vehicle and engine when it is sold in North America.
4) As an obvious example of the failure in many, but not all, automobile recommended maintenance schedules: Many auto manufactuers do not list flushing the brake fluid as a routine maintenance item, while others list it as an every two year item (Volvo and VW for example). However, any brake system engineer or experienced brake mechanic will tell you that your brake system is going to last much longer with periodic flushing than it does without. Caliper and master cylinder replacement rates would drop well over 50% if car owners had this basic work done.
So, you can assume that you will get "acceptable" service life from your vehicle by just following the book. However, you are unlikely to get maximum service life or lowest overall ownership costs by doing so.
John
[ March 18, 2004, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: jthorner ]
doitmyself.
A workmate was bragging that he'd run Valvoline XLD for nearly 200,000km in his commodore V-6 (buick V-6), with 10,000km changes and was thus the guru of engine maintenance, and was planning on running his alfa romeo (160,000km) on the same.
Now I haven't used Valvoline for ages.
And I haven't done 10,000km changes on dino, ever.
I asked that if he had the time, could he pull a rocker box at his next oil change, and tell me what he saw.
He grabbed me at work on Monday to tell me that he'd done it, and found 1/8" of black sludge over everything. So he pulled the rocker cover off the alfa, and found a spotless surface.
He wanted to know why......well there's oils, and there's oils.
(however, the Holden V-6 uses 1/2 litre per 10,000km, and the alfa uses 1/2 litre per 3,000km)
A workmate was bragging that he'd run Valvoline XLD for nearly 200,000km in his commodore V-6 (buick V-6), with 10,000km changes and was thus the guru of engine maintenance, and was planning on running his alfa romeo (160,000km) on the same.
Now I haven't used Valvoline for ages.
And I haven't done 10,000km changes on dino, ever.
I asked that if he had the time, could he pull a rocker box at his next oil change, and tell me what he saw.
He grabbed me at work on Monday to tell me that he'd done it, and found 1/8" of black sludge over everything. So he pulled the rocker cover off the alfa, and found a spotless surface.
He wanted to know why......well there's oils, and there's oils.
(however, the Holden V-6 uses 1/2 litre per 10,000km, and the alfa uses 1/2 litre per 3,000km)
I to have wondered about the old Valvoline XLD.
Was it XLD Premium or Plus (the latest rating XLD's) or the older rating XLD's like SG
I have herd a few really impressive stories about Valvoline XLD's and know of a Drag racer that builds engines and only runs them XLD and has never had an oil related problem.
It's an oil I would love to here more feed back on!
Was it XLD Premium or Plus (the latest rating XLD's) or the older rating XLD's like SG
I have herd a few really impressive stories about Valvoline XLD's and know of a Drag racer that builds engines and only runs them XLD and has never had an oil related problem.
It's an oil I would love to here more feed back on!
Castrol likes to market Group 3 semi synthetic blends, such as this Formula "Synthetic" R 5w30, as a synthetic engine oil, when it isn't. http://www.castrol.com.au/products/pdf/Formula R Synthetic 5w30.pdf
The same is true of the Castrol Syntec range in the USA.
Thank you all for your thoughts. I guess my biggest problem on this site is trying to determine what information is truly objective and putting it together to make an informed decision (vs. the average Joe consumer). I wish some of the "real" experts (Terry D, Molecule?) would chime in more often to straigten out our mis-conceptions.
Some opinions are easy to recognize as just opinion.
But, here are a few examples of poor objectivety:
The highly acclaimed Chevron Supreme VOA came in with a terrible flash point and members here played it down. In this case, we will put our blinders on, flash point really is not an important criteria.
One thread started bashing non moly oils (Valvoline?) until one poster reminded them of the fantastic Motorcraft 5w20 results (no moly). We all jump on the moly bandwagon in spite of the evidence.
So, while John Browning encourages independent thinking, aren't we all tending to join small sheep groups here regarding additives, brands, weights, etc..
In the end, I have learned a lot here, but not enough to make me feel like I can make a "best" purchase decision (Maybe better, but who knows).
I want black or white. This gray area bugs me!
Thank you.
Some opinions are easy to recognize as just opinion.
But, here are a few examples of poor objectivety:
The highly acclaimed Chevron Supreme VOA came in with a terrible flash point and members here played it down. In this case, we will put our blinders on, flash point really is not an important criteria.
One thread started bashing non moly oils (Valvoline?) until one poster reminded them of the fantastic Motorcraft 5w20 results (no moly). We all jump on the moly bandwagon in spite of the evidence.
So, while John Browning encourages independent thinking, aren't we all tending to join small sheep groups here regarding additives, brands, weights, etc..
In the end, I have learned a lot here, but not enough to make me feel like I can make a "best" purchase decision (Maybe better, but who knows).
I want black or white. This gray area bugs me!
Thank you.
It just isn't possible; the more you know about something, the more gray areas rear their ugly head.
Hundreds of factors go into an oil's performance at a point in time. At another point, different factors. We average for temperature, trip length, type of driving, etc.
This is as much an art as a science.
Fortunately the consequences of poor oil choices are not that great. Engines last a long time.
More engines die of neglect and disinterest than from brand "B" oil.
To put it simply, the flash point Blackstone uses is just the quick and dirty method to quickly determine contamination. Doesn't really represent exact physical properties or correlate with published values.
Kind of like TBN values from ALL labs.
Kind of like TBN values from ALL labs.
We need to give doitmyself a quiz. This should prove the value of your new found knowledge (well except for #6) even if some of it is still being debated. And I like to think we are like the blind men mistaking parts of an elephant ( Each man mistakes the part for the whole ). If oil manufacturers would put the ingredients on the can like the packages for food, we would not have all the guesswork.
Your engine is talking. *** Quiz 1 *** (Closed book test)
1. You have tried a new oil. In pulling your dipstick you notice tiny brown sediment the size of grains of salt that smudge when you squeeze. It is:
a. Wax deposits from previous oils
b. Broken seals loosened up by new oil
c. Carbon being cleaned off cylinders
2. You will be taking a trip across country (6000 miles) in your SUV including a trip to Death Valley and no planned stops for an oil change. Which oil would you prefer:
a. The oil available at the dollar store
b. Synthetic 5w30
c. Valvoline VR-1
d. 40wt, SB rated
3. You are in Pep Boys. The Proline oil filter is $2.50, Purolater is $3.25, and Fram (doesn't matter). Which is the better value?
4. You are at the used car dealership shopping for a car with your daughter. You open the oil fill cap and look at the internals. Which car would you prefer:
a. White foam on oil cap and corrosion on the nuts
b. All parts appear as grey metal
c. Hardened sediment in valleys and dark stain
d. Amber tarnished
5. Which will skew the results of a used oil analysis?
a. Sampling a warm engine
b. Bypass filter
c. Sampling with a silicon hose
d. Sending in the sample via Fed Ex
6. Who has the most posts to BITOG:
a. TooSlick
b. Patman
c. Molakule
[ March 18, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: rg144 ]
Your engine is talking. *** Quiz 1 *** (Closed book test)
1. You have tried a new oil. In pulling your dipstick you notice tiny brown sediment the size of grains of salt that smudge when you squeeze. It is:
a. Wax deposits from previous oils
b. Broken seals loosened up by new oil
c. Carbon being cleaned off cylinders
2. You will be taking a trip across country (6000 miles) in your SUV including a trip to Death Valley and no planned stops for an oil change. Which oil would you prefer:
a. The oil available at the dollar store
b. Synthetic 5w30
c. Valvoline VR-1
d. 40wt, SB rated
3. You are in Pep Boys. The Proline oil filter is $2.50, Purolater is $3.25, and Fram (doesn't matter). Which is the better value?
4. You are at the used car dealership shopping for a car with your daughter. You open the oil fill cap and look at the internals. Which car would you prefer:
a. White foam on oil cap and corrosion on the nuts
b. All parts appear as grey metal
c. Hardened sediment in valleys and dark stain
d. Amber tarnished
5. Which will skew the results of a used oil analysis?
a. Sampling a warm engine
b. Bypass filter
c. Sampling with a silicon hose
d. Sending in the sample via Fed Ex
6. Who has the most posts to BITOG:
a. TooSlick
b. Patman
c. Molakule
[ March 18, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: rg144 ]
I would imagine that some of the bias against valvoline are some of the reasons some here hate castrol. valvoline advertises "#1 oil for mechanics" "we are the best" blah blah. alot are disappointed that this isn't a "super oil" but instead an oil that will deliver long engine life with other dinos as well. if you were paying $2 qt for valvoline for the past twenty years and you just learned that havoline would have gotten you the same results for $1/ quart. U would expect valvoline to have twice the additives or something. some would go out of their way to bash valvoline as much as possible because of this. It was like this with castrol until German castrol came here. when people would recommend dinos..before german castrol..it was pennzoil, havoline, chevron, motorcraft. Now with german castrol here, some have let up on castrol. even recommending GTX as a good dino
Your engine is talking. *** Quiz 1 *** (Closed book test)
1. You have tried a new oil. In pulling your dipstick you notice tiny brown sediment the size of grains of salt that smudge when you squeeze. It is:
a. Wax deposits from previous oils
b. Broken seals loosened up by new oil
c. Carbon being cleaned off cylinders
NONE OF THE ABOVE - OILS CONTAIN LITTLE, IF ANY WAX, SEALS-MAYBE DEPOSITS COMING OFF-NOT BREAKING, CARBON IS HARD.
2. You will be taking a trip across country (6000 miles) in your SUV including a trip to Death Valley and no planned stops for an oil change. Which oil would you prefer:
a. The oil available at the dollar store
b. Synthetic 5w30
c. Valvoline VR-1 (DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS ONE)
d. 40wt, SB rated
NONE OF THE ABOVE. 6,000 OCI - SYNTHETIC OR HDDO.
3. You are in Pep Boys. The Proline oil filter is $2.50, Purolater is $3.25, and Fram (doesn't matter). Which is the better value?
IS PROLINE A CHAMPION OF GOOD DESIGN? IF NOT, THEN PUROLATOR.
4. You are at the used car dealership shopping for a car with your daughter. You open the oil fill cap and look at the internals. Which car would you prefer:
a. White foam on oil cap and corrosion on the nuts
b. All parts appear as grey metal
c. Hardened sediment in valleys and dark stain
d. Amber tarnished
B, ALTHOUGH WHAT DOES WHITE FOAM ON THE CAP AND CORRODED NUTS HAVE TO DO WITH BUYING A CAR?
5. Which will skew the results of a used oil analysis?
a. Sampling a warm engine
b. Bypass filter (NORIA JUST RAN ARTICLE ABOUT HOW THESE CAN FILTER OUT SOME ADDITIVES!)
c. Sampling with a silicon hose (NOT SILICA HOSE?)
d. Sending in the sample via Fed Ex
I'LL GUESS B ON THIS ONE
6. Who has the most posts to BITOG:
a. TooSlick
b. Patman
c. Molakule
NOT TOO FAMILIAR WITH A, BUT B AND C POST WITH AUTHORITY.
1. You have tried a new oil. In pulling your dipstick you notice tiny brown sediment the size of grains of salt that smudge when you squeeze. It is:
a. Wax deposits from previous oils
b. Broken seals loosened up by new oil
c. Carbon being cleaned off cylinders
NONE OF THE ABOVE - OILS CONTAIN LITTLE, IF ANY WAX, SEALS-MAYBE DEPOSITS COMING OFF-NOT BREAKING, CARBON IS HARD.
2. You will be taking a trip across country (6000 miles) in your SUV including a trip to Death Valley and no planned stops for an oil change. Which oil would you prefer:
a. The oil available at the dollar store
b. Synthetic 5w30
c. Valvoline VR-1 (DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS ONE)
d. 40wt, SB rated
NONE OF THE ABOVE. 6,000 OCI - SYNTHETIC OR HDDO.
3. You are in Pep Boys. The Proline oil filter is $2.50, Purolater is $3.25, and Fram (doesn't matter). Which is the better value?
IS PROLINE A CHAMPION OF GOOD DESIGN? IF NOT, THEN PUROLATOR.
4. You are at the used car dealership shopping for a car with your daughter. You open the oil fill cap and look at the internals. Which car would you prefer:
a. White foam on oil cap and corrosion on the nuts
b. All parts appear as grey metal
c. Hardened sediment in valleys and dark stain
d. Amber tarnished
B, ALTHOUGH WHAT DOES WHITE FOAM ON THE CAP AND CORRODED NUTS HAVE TO DO WITH BUYING A CAR?
5. Which will skew the results of a used oil analysis?
a. Sampling a warm engine
b. Bypass filter (NORIA JUST RAN ARTICLE ABOUT HOW THESE CAN FILTER OUT SOME ADDITIVES!)
c. Sampling with a silicon hose (NOT SILICA HOSE?)
d. Sending in the sample via Fed Ex
I'LL GUESS B ON THIS ONE
6. Who has the most posts to BITOG:
a. TooSlick
b. Patman
c. Molakule
NOT TOO FAMILIAR WITH A, BUT B AND C POST WITH AUTHORITY.
CANADIAN AVERAGE ENGINE LIFE
1970's: 90K-96K miles
1990's: 156K-168K miles
2000-2010 projected: 192K-204K miles
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_011128.htm
FROM THE DATA ABOVE WE CAN REACH THE FOLLOWING CONCLUSIONS (comments often found on BITOG):
1. Cheap API "SL" conventional oil is junk, pure-and-simple.
2. Synthetic oil is the ONLY way to go.
3. Going more than 3,000 miles on SL is only for fools.
4. New 5w-20 and other lightweight oils are literally ruining our engines.
5. Newer small sumps and small oil filters will trash your engine.
6. Drivers who DO NOT perform used oil analysis are foolish.
7. Actually following the oil service guidelines in the owner's manual is only for sheep who don't know any better.
8. The powerplant engineers in Detroit, Tokyo and Munich haven't a clue as to what they're doing.
Oh, I forgot...it helps if you first drop some acid before reading the eight bullet points above.
1970's: 90K-96K miles
1990's: 156K-168K miles
2000-2010 projected: 192K-204K miles
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_011128.htm
FROM THE DATA ABOVE WE CAN REACH THE FOLLOWING CONCLUSIONS (comments often found on BITOG):
1. Cheap API "SL" conventional oil is junk, pure-and-simple.
2. Synthetic oil is the ONLY way to go.
3. Going more than 3,000 miles on SL is only for fools.
4. New 5w-20 and other lightweight oils are literally ruining our engines.
5. Newer small sumps and small oil filters will trash your engine.
6. Drivers who DO NOT perform used oil analysis are foolish.
7. Actually following the oil service guidelines in the owner's manual is only for sheep who don't know any better.
8. The powerplant engineers in Detroit, Tokyo and Munich haven't a clue as to what they're doing.
Oh, I forgot...it helps if you first drop some acid before reading the eight bullet points above.
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