After studying this site, I have learned..........little.

[Patman]

A big purpose of this site is to teach people about lubrication though, not necessarily to find out what the best oil in the world is.

Sure, the big quest for a lot of us is to find the best oil we can within our budget, but just because you haven't decided on what your best plan of action is, doesn't mean this site isn't getting the job done.

There is no other site on the net with as much oil info and as many oil experts as this one. Period.

 

[buster]

I agree, yet I think we have no proof at all that wear via used oil analysis is relevant to determing the best oils and maximum engine life. It's great in theory, but I've never met anyone wearing out an engine. Patman, your thread proved this point. Dave from Redline said used oil analysis are NOT good measures of comparing oils, yet we are seeing Iron reduced by 50% with ASL over M1 at this point.

[ March 18, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Terry your viewpoint on the abilities of the Automotive Engineers you deal with there is of course accurate - for you! And I acknowledge that too!!!
It is also a sad and generalised indictement regarding the Engineering prowess of the Power Train Auto engineers you have met in NA

Perhaps I have lived in a wider World but my experience is quite different to yours
The Australian, European and Japanese Engineering personnel I have worked with both here in Australia and in New Zealand, Japan, Germany, Sweden, England etc. too are obviously a different breed
Perhaps that is why they have a successful Auto Industry at present - even if American money is involved here and there

I have worked with Engineers at Kubota in Japan for instance. The Engineering teams I met there knew more about lubricants and their application than most of the experts posting on this Forum will ever know! They considered the engine in the hand held tiller in rural China, the cropper in Vietnam and the Marine diesels operating in the North Sea. They could relate to their testing of various lubricants and the reason why certain specifications were in one market and not in another. They knew more about filtration and wear levels and.....well, I won't bore you with more information

I was also "involved" with BMC and Leyland as the British Motor Industy collapsed. Through Union power, in-expert Management, political expediency and etc. Many of their Engineers were very skilled and innovative - they only lacked money and resources. I have revisited these places over the last forty years - the skill levels are still very high. They are still very knowledgeable on lubricants - perhaps in comes down to their level of training

As to interpreting a used oil analysis - well your expertise has been demonstrated.

Many of us however do these things as a matter of course. With vehicles that run more miles per week than many vehicles discussed on here do in a year. Accuracy and innovation in used oil analysis is paramount. But it all depends on what you are doing it for

Please do not assume that all Engineers in the Automotive field are a mirror image of your exposure - that is simply inaccurate

I know that the American Automotive Industry has been in decline for many years. Much of it is now owned by the Europeans and the Japanese. I hope it does not go the same way as the British Automotive Industry did in the 1960s and 70s. At least thru the inability of their Power train Engineers to accurately read a used oil analysis!

And finally, ACEA is in a different league to the API. It is opearted by a consortium of Manufacturers as you know. The Engineers that set the lubricant standards for ACEA work for the Auto manufactures. They tell the Oil Industry what they want. Not the other way around like it is in NA

This Forum is read Internationally - we need to take an International approach on here too. As many already do!

Patman and Buster - please keep up the good work on an excellent Forum!!

Regards

[ March 18, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[TC]

"I have to call and tell my Uncle his 250k+ 86 Lesabre is dead now because canadiandriver said so."
T-KEITH: I thought I'd help ya out here, with an assist from Webster's Dictionary: "'AVERAGE.' A quantity that represents or approximates an arithmetic mean; a typical or usual amount." The dictionary didn't mention anything about your uncle's LeSabre, nor the guy down the street who trashed his Mazda engine by 78K miles, but I'll check again just to be sure...

I agree with everything Patman said.

BUSTER: Very interesting points, although they seemingly put us back to Square One. I've heard seemingly knowledgable folks say:
1. Oil firms' oil spec sheets don't mean anything in how they'll perform in your engine.
2. Standardized ASTM tests don't reflect how an oil will perform in your particular engine.
And now...
3. (Dave from Redline): used oil analysis are NOT good measures of comparing oils.

Basically, that leaves....well, that leaves almost NOTHING to scientifically select an oil and service strategy. No wonder DoItYourself was so confused in his original post. Yet while some folks trash what's in an owner's manual, Canadian engines this decade will last almost a quarter longer than those from 10 yrs ago, largely BECAUSE of what's in those manuals, not IN SPITE of same. I guess I'm blown away that "Read the manual" and "Keep it simple" are wise old saws everywhere else in society, but for some on BITOG, these philosophies are seen as a joke, in spite of the facts such as the CanadianDriver engine data above. Also completely lost is the fact that THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF CERT'S SUCH AS "SL" IS TO REDUCE, IF NOT ELIMINATE, THE NEED FOR used oil analysis for typical drivers who simply follow the Normal or Severe Service schedules for their cars. used oil analysis determine how an oil is performing, but cert's are specifically designed to predict that performance in advance -- that's why Chevy says "SL" is good enough for a Malibu, but a Vette will also need GM 4718M, meaning the hoards of Vette owners won't have to rush used oil analysis to the labs to make sure their oils are getting the job done.

 

[JohnBrowning]

doitmyself, I am glad that you now able to reduce you OCD meds. Now that I know you are also "Staff" at a Research University it all makes sense. It has been my experince that origanal thought is seldom encourged in instutions of higher learning. You are probably suffering from "Group Think".

In an other wise health indiviual able to think independently and creatively "Group Think" can be crippleing. I recently read an article in a peer reviewd phycology journal that stated that often times "Group Think" can manifest symptoms of OCD in healthy free thinkers when forced to conform. You may be improperly diagonosed with OCD and over mediacated as well!

 

[doitmyself]

TC, your comments make some great points.


JohnBrowning,

I take that "healthy free thinker forced to conform" as a compliment. Thank you.

I used the term "staff" not as a status symbol, but rather as a positive way to distinguish myself from FACULTY Phd's. (sometimes refered to as God around here).

Free thinking? Not here. A research study under $30,000 dollars is almost considered not even worth doing.

Regarding "lack of original thought at institutions of higher learning" - Well, I have participated in some assinine things at the Ivory Tower under the glass bubble. I USED to think the real world had their stuff together better. Now I know that the real world is also equally messed up(corporations, contractors, etc.).

By the way, was that you that I saw broke down on I-96 near Brighton, putting 15w40 oil into that 3 banger GEO?

Keep it fun!

 

[rg144]

Answers are based on my personal experiences since I've started reading the forum (I'm a newbie so no flaming).
1. A - my son bought a Mazda Protoge with 169K miles. We changed it to our oil and the wax residues started floating. If it was seals you would start saving for the engine work. If it was metal, you'd better try to unload the car at a dealearship as a trade-in. I changed the oil, and it's running fine still.
2. B. But you get credit for alternative solution. VR-1 is race oil; those weekend racers use it in their high RPM activities. SB is pre-1950 engines.
3. Proline. These are *identical* filters, even the numbers match, placed within 6 feet of each other. So I save a buck everytime I go to Pep Boys.
4. B or D, amber, might indicate oils with strong additive packages were used. As the ARX site says, it is just cosmetic. Sediment is from neglect, and foam is moisture due to many short trips or coolant. But the corrosion means it's been going on for a long time and that's not good. Recently, I was car shopping and looked at a 1996 Infiniti G20 for $2000. On pulling the dipstick, there was brown stuff like nail polish that scraped off using your finger nail. There was a valve tap you couldn't believe. This engine was doomed.
5. B - I was thinking it will definitely catch Iron, and Si, and water in the oil. So UOA won't be accurate. So if you are using it to get an idea on what oil is suited to your new car or figure out a OCI, then pull off that Trasko or wait to install the MotorGuard.
6. Patman 10,900
Score: passed.

[ March 21, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: rg144 ]

 

[Gary Allan]

bump cuz I found it amusing ..took a long time to find it in with the search...

 

[pzev]

Wow, I was reading this all along thinking it was a recent thread

. I guess I am in the same boat as this guy lol

 

[Craig in Canada]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC:

Confused by the recommendations in these boards? No problem, just log off your computer, open your owner's manual, and read what the guys who BUILT the engine have to say.

---

There's one flaw in this logic. You assume the engineers wrote the manual, or had the final word in all areas of vehicle development. As an engineer (nothing to do with cars) I can assure you that marketing and legal counsel often have more input (and clout) when everything's said and done.

That being said, there are lots of reasons to doubt what your manual says in many cases. I have a decent list of "manufactuer recommended" practices that would make any engineer or long-term owner cringe. "lifetime" fluids, 22,000km OCIs on dealer group III oils (come in when the light comes on) etc...

Manufacturers are trying to sell their cars to a lazy buying public that wants to put gas in and drive. I treat my washing machine better than J.Q. Public treats his/her car. To these people lack of required maintenance is a good thing, fuel economy is the next best thing. People don't seem to keep their cars anymore in favour of leasing them and ditching them. Why would this owner care about sludge or bore wear when the car reaches 8 years of age? Do the minimum, drive the snot out of it, and it's someone else's problem. As mentioned, marketing has caught on to this and has tailored recommended service intervals to account for it.

Craig.