ACEA oils and OCIs

[ExpandW]

Generally speaking, how long can the OCI of a Mid or Low SAPS oil be considering the reduced additive pack compared to a Full SAPS A/B oil?

For example, given an OCI of around 6000 miles with mixed driving, no more than 1 year, does the SAPS level actually matter? This is considering that the manufacturer recommends a synthetic A/B oil and exhaust equipment is not a concern.

 

[fantastic]

Need more information. What the vehicle requirement is and all the variables of terrain weather city/highway on and on. That is why the best answer is used oil analysis and using the OEM duration into consideration.

 

[Jetronic]

We used C3 oils when I worked at a hyundai dealer. the OCI was invariably 15k km and this was fine for diesels if in good working order, but it was too much for almost every gas engine. There was a lot of varnish forming inside the valve cover and often on the dipstick. Quite a few dipsticks would be stuck inside the dipstick tube. We used castrol Magnatec OE 5W-40 at first, then a Castrolk Magnatec 5W-30 and switched to Total Ineo in the end. I can't say much about that last oil, only used it for a year or so before I left, it didn't seem to do worse. We had a few failures because people ran out of oil before the end of the OCI, seizing the engine.

I never seen anything like it with A3/B4 oils even with 20k km change intervals. But those weren't hyundais but peugeots. The oil capacity was similar, as was the engine capacity and configuration though.

I'm sure short tripping is part of the problem, here in europe at that time only people that short tripped bought gas engine cars, everyone else bought diesel.

Base oil quality matters more in a low or mid saps oil is my take away.

6000 miles is about the max I would do, here were I am anyway

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Generally speaking, how long can the OCI of a Mid or Low SAPS oil be considering the reduced additive pack compared to a Full SAPS A/B oil?

For example, given an OCI of around 6000 miles with mixed driving, no more than 1 year, does the SAPS level actually matter? This is considering that the manufacturer recommends a synthetic A/B oil and exhaust equipment is not a concern.

It depends on the sulphur levels of the fuel being burned. If ULSD/ULSG the interval on low/mid SAPS is just as long as Full SAPS.

As far as I know all* the European automakers currently spec low/mid SAPS in the EU and US.

*Porsche, I don't believe, has moved all of their fleet to ACEA Cx oils.

 

[kschachn]

It depends on the sulphur levels of the fuel being burned. If ULSD/ULSG the interval on low/mid SAPS is just as long as Full SAPS.

As far as I know all* the European automakers currently spec low/mid SAPS in the EU and US.

*Porsche, I don't believe, has moved all of their fleet to ACEA Cx oils.

Yeah he seemed to understand that here:

Analysis paralysis - Need help choosing my next oil

The car in question is a European Accord with the N22A1 engine, which is a chain-driven DOHC diesel engine with hydraulic tappets. And the scary word there is "chain-driven", as this is a known weak spot with this engine. Honda says 0W30 oil is "preferred", then 0W40, and then 5W30 & 5W40 oils...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[ExpandW]

It depends on the sulphur levels of the fuel being burned. If ULSD/ULSG the interval on low/mid SAPS is just as long as Full SAPS.

I'm pretty sure we have ULSD/ULSG in the EU.
I assume the cleaning potential of the oil would basically be the same in that case?

 

[kschachn]

I'm pretty sure we have ULSD/ULSG in the EU.
I assume the cleaning potential of the oil would basically be the same in that case?

Cleaning what?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I'm pretty sure we have ULSD/ULSG in the EU.
I assume the cleaning potential of the oil would basically be the same in that case?

EU has been ULSD/ULSG for essentially 20 years. As for keeping internals clean you can't make that determination based off SAPS alone.

 

[svenson]

We used C3 oils when I worked at a hyundai dealer. the OCI was invariably 15k km and this was fine for diesels if in good working order, but it was too much for almost every gas engine. There was a lot of varnish forming inside the valve cover and often on the dipstick. Quite a few dipsticks would be stuck inside the dipstick tube. We used castrol Magnatec OE 5W-40 at first, then a Castrolk Magnatec 5W-30 and switched to Total Ineo in the end. I can't say much about that last oil, only used it for a year or so before I left, it didn't seem to do worse. We had a few failures because people ran out of oil before the end of the OCI, seizing the engine.

I never seen anything like it with A3/B4 oils even with 20k km change intervals. But those weren't hyundais but peugeots. The oil capacity was similar, as was the engine capacity and configuration though.

I'm sure short tripping is part of the problem, here in europe at that time only people that short tripped bought gas engine cars, everyone else bought diesel.

Base oil quality matters more in a low or mid saps oil is my take away.

6000 miles is about the max I would do, here were I am anyway

so ,your suggestion is A3/B4 for better engine?
which oil of that low/mid saps oil contains that good base ?
and i see you own an alfa romeo,but the oil in your sign hasn't got approval for your car.

 

[Jetronic]

so ,your suggestion is A3/B4 for better engine?
which oil of that low/mid saps oil contains that good base ?
and i see you own an alfa romeo,but the oil in your sign hasn't got approval for your car.

Only Petronas can get approvals for Alfa Romeo cars.

Not all A3/B4 oils will be better, and not all C3 will be bad, I would say SAPS level is the wrong thing to focus on

 

[svenson]

1)Only Petronas can get approvals for Alfa Romeo cars.

2) Not all A3/B4 oils will be better, and not all C3 will be bad, I would say SAPS level is the wrong thing to focus on

1) then with what criteria you chose this total in your sign that you are using?

i never said anything about SAPS,my 2 next questions came from your written words:

2) your conclusion from your service experiences drove me there to ask this question.i guess it wasnt a conclusion. just sthing you noticed.and the real problem could be ,short tripping among others, as you said.

3 )which oil of that low/mid saps oil contains that good base ? can you mention some?

 

[Jetronic]

1) then with what criteria you chose this total in your sign that you are using?

i never said anything about SAPS,my 2 next questions came from your written words:

2) your conclusion from your service experiences drove me there to ask this question.i guess it wasnt a conclusion. just sthing you noticed.and the real problem could be ,short tripping among others, as you said.

3 )which oil of that low/mid saps oil contains that good base ? can you mention some?

I chose that oil when I had my diesel, I still have leftover. I chose it because it had part PAO, part grpIII base with moderate amounts of detergent (more than C3, less than typical A3/B4, 8.8 TBN), good Noack (under 10%, MB229.5 approved, higher than C3 zzdp levels. It was what A3/B4 oils were before the mandated 10TBN minimum. It sits just outside the ACEA C3 range at 0.88% saps. calcium detergens work brilliantly in a diesel and have friction reducing properties in all engines, that's why we don't see calcium dissapearing completely even in API SP oils. I got exceptional long distances bvetween regens of the dPF, 750km in winter, up to 2500 km in summer. The car got totaled so had to buy another, got gas engine because of the LEZ zones becoming an issue for diesels. Cost me about 3.5 euro per litre IIRC

The problem is, short tripping was just as prevalent when I worked at the peugeot dealer, but they used full-saps oils in everything, specifically Total quartz 9000 5W-40, oil consumption wasn't an issue except at extremely high mileage cars, while intervals were longer. Soot was an issue affecting especially the 1.6 diesels, but the engines were clean inside: too much egr, same thing that's killing the 3.0 v6 ecodiesels in the US.

Look for low Noack, high flashpoint, low pour point oils to find the good bases. Here's some, but formulations change that's why I don't like to name specific products:

https://www.ravenol.de/en/product/motorenoel/pkw-motorenoel/ravenol-vollsynth-turbo-vst-sae-5w-40 (this one is full saps)

RAVENOL Racing Eco Track RET SAE 5W-40

RAVENOL Racing Eco Track RET SAE 5W-40 is a modern, full synthetic fuel-efficent multigrade engine oil based on renewable vegetable raw materials. RAVENOL...

www.ravenol.de

RAVENOL RUP Racing Ultra Performance SAE 5W-40

RAVENOL RUP Racing Ultra Performance SAE 5W-40 was developed together with Ralf Schumacher for motorsport and is ideally suited for car racing, even when s...

www.ravenol.de

https://www.ravenol.de/en/product/motorenoel/pkw-motorenoel/ravenol-dxg-sae-5w-30 (lower hths if that's what you like)
https://www.ravenol.de/en/product/motorenoel/pkw-motorenoel/ravenol-arctic-low-saps-als-sae-0w-30 (close to the total in my sig, but not the current version of it)

RAVENOL REP Racing Extra Performance SAE 5W-30

RAVENOL REP Racing Extra Performance SAE 5W-30 was developed together with Ralf Schumacher for motorsport and is ideally suited for car racing, even when s...

www.ravenol.de

RAVENOL HLS SAE 5W-30

RAVENOL HLS SAE 5W-30 is a synthetic Mid SAPS low friction motor oil with CleanSynto® technology for passenger car petrol and diesel engines with and witho...

www.ravenol.de

and there's more, even from ravenol.... so look for similar products that are convenient to get where you are.

 

[svenson]

thanks a lot for your explanation.well ,i always check these 3 ,plus HTHS for choosing a good oil ..ok, flashpoint and pour point are accessible in every oil sheet but as you already know,NOACK info is very difficult to find on sheets.

 

[Jetronic]

thanks a lot for your explanation.well ,i always check these 3 ,plus HTHS for choosing a good oil ..ok, flashpoint and pour point are accessible in every oil sheet but as you already know,NOACK info is very difficult to find on sheets.

Yes, but some certifications have noack limits, so if an oil is approved (but not recommended or suitable) you know the max Noack.

 

[svenson]

max Noack.

but we aim at the lowest noack, so thats the difficult thing to know.
we have seen for example some motul oils have announced their NOACK and ranges from oil to oil from 8-12%.
but thats not very transparent with other companies.
i mean i know a castrol c3-A3/B4 oil according to its certification should have NOACK of 13 or 11 max ,if i am not mistaken,but i dont know the lowest i am aiming for.

 

[Jetronic]

but we aim at the lowest noack, so thats the difficult thing to know.
we have seen for example some motul oils have announced their NOACK and ranges from oil to oil from 8-12%.
but thats not very transparent with other companies.
i mean i know a castrol c3-A3/B4 oil according to its certification should have NOACK of 13 or 11 max ,if i am not mistaken,but i dont know the lowest i am aiming for.

The oil I'll be using next has 3.3% noack. I'm not bothering with oils that I don't know the stats for anymore.

 

[svenson]

which is??

 

[svenson]

The oil I'll be using next has 3.3% noack. I'm not bothering with oils that I don't know the stats for anymore.

which is??

 

[dubber09]

Imho, full SAPS > mid SAPS > low SAPS, full one is better in general but may not be much if any on modern esp DI engines.
Mid SAPS is perfectly fine as long as one doesn't push for long OCIs. Low SAPS is somewhat lacking general engine 'protection'.
Also, I think extreme low Noack isn't necessary if you don't run long OCIs.