ACEA B vs E

[Extreme-Duty]

Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
Originally Posted By: Rollins
Originally Posted By: tdi-rick

Even current blends of Delvac 1 seem to struggle, and I've seen an absolute shocker with Shell Rimula X.

Some more explanation on this,please?



It's been suggested to me by someone that sees a lot of used oil analysis that D1 isn't currently showing as well in very severe service as it has in the past when it was arguably the best oil available, period.
What may be behind this I have no idea, and aren't really qualified to comment on, although it was suggested that while ULSD has usefully reduced sulphur and acid formation, the aromatics and possibly fuel additives are doing strange things to the lubes.



Ditto! I have heard that too.

Also, I want to ask this again, since you are able to buy these oil in OZ. Has anyone ever seen used oil analysis of Euro-style long drain HDEOs?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
I have seen no evidence of a significant ULSD "issue" related to lubricants. The used oil analysis I have seen from CJ-4 lubricants - when used as intended - have looked excellent to me

I have not heard any "vibes" nor seen any evidence of poor performance regarding either Rimula X or Delvac 1. As a prime user of one of these lubricants I expect I would be one of the first to know and to press the "caution button" if I had any hint of this!

Extreme_Duty - you said this;
"Also, I want to ask this again, since you are able to buy these oil in OZ. Has anyone ever seen used oil analysis of Euro-style long drain HDEOs?"

I cannot envisage what you mean re "Euro-style long drain HDEOs". The HDEOs available here will meet the required E standards and Manufacturer Approvals

The main Euro "long drain" standards that come to mind are Volvo's VDS-1,2,3, MAN and MB. If this is what you mean then lubricants meeting these standards and ACEA's E4 (over several years) and E7 (since introduction) have shown excellent engine durability results - not always measured by used oil analysis alone! Single pass used oil analysis are usually relatively meaningless - extensive period trending makes them somewhat more viable as a measure of engine wear performance - but not an absolute one!

Euro long drain HDEO Manufacturer Approval requirements may be mutually exclusive to CJ-4 lubricants in some cases

 

[Extreme-Duty]

Doug,


what I was saying about Delvac 1 is so far nothing but hearsay. I just find it interesting that somebody else has been told the same. Over the last let's say five years, the avergage engine on the road has become more demanding. It is not unlikely that today's average Delvac 1 CI-4+ UOA looks worse than five years back in time. Nothing is proven yet.

The Rimula X UOA that Rick was referring to was from one particular Land Rover engine, maybe even used in "demanding" service. I do not know whether Rimula X is a good choice for this particular engine at all. It's not necessarily Shell's premium stuff IMHO. Multible UOA could tell us more about the engine, its operating conditions, the lubricant chosen.

Like you said:

"Single pass used oil analysis are usually relatively meaningless "

...I totally agree one this one.

"Euro long drain HDEO Manufacturer Approval requirements may be mutually exclusive to CJ-4 lubricants in some cases"

Didn't I mention an example with CJ-4 vs. ACEA E4-07 (TBN min. 12) in another tread?


Euro-style long drain HDEOs:

"I cannot envisage what you mean re "Euro-style long drain HDEOs". The HDEOs available here will meet the required E standards and Manufacturer Approvals"

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned some products that are commonly considered long drain oils in Europe. I will try to explain my point of view. When I started watching the lube market, HDEOs offered in Europe usually looked like that:

1.) Mineral 15w40, listing ACEA E5 (+B3/A3), MB228.3, MAN M3275, VDS-2 etc. + US-spec.: API CF, CH-4(+SJ) CES20071, 72, 76, 77 and Mack EO-M+, sometimes called "SHPD"

2.) Their "fuel economy" Gr. I/III 10w-40 counterparts with the same spec.

3.) "Ultra High Performance Diesel" engine oil, mostly Gr. III basestock, 5w30 or 10w-40, ACEA E4, MB228.5, MAN3277, Renault RXD, Scania LDF, DAF HP1 (HP2), VDS-2, MTU Type 3, API CF, sometimes EO-M+.

1 and 2 were recommended for drain intervals up to 50.000-60.000 km.

3 Was sold as the "superior" one with drain intervals up to 100.000 - 160.000.

With our CDC/Cummins engines, we had to settle for one of the "inferior" oils. That was a little "annoying".

Until we found Delvac 1 CH-4, we had to believe there was something mutually exclusive between European long drain and US-spec. Since then, UHPDs have been upgraded to ACEA E4/E5(E7). Sometimes they additionally list CES20077 and VDS-3, but still there are very few to meet CH-4 or CI-4 (not licensed of course) and actually none of them can handle a CES20078.

CJ-4 is a different story of course.

Regarding fuels, I am concerned about the 5% biodiesel content we have in our diesel. Unburned biodiesel entering the crankcase will remain in the oil, as opposed to diesel that will evaporate off at higher oil temps. UOA showing elevated biodiesel but low diesel content can be found on the net, wearcheck.de has them.

What will biodiesel do to the oil other than lowering its viscosity and lubricity?

Will it speed-up acid formation?

E.D.