A question for new car dealership mechanics.

Mystic · Dec 17, 2004

There was a post a while back where at least one guy who had worked at new car dealerships said that a lot of dealerships use 10w30 oil since it is often cheaper. I have always wondered about the quality of motor oil at new car dealerships. A dishonest dealership could save money by using a cheap bulk oil. Obviously 10w30 oil does not meet the requirments of Ford and Honda (who require 5W-20 oil in newer vehicles with gasoline engines in most vehicles).

So I have a question. Is there really a problem with new car dealerships using 10w30 oil instead of the 5W-20 or 5w30 oil that is supposed to be used? And if so, why don't the car and truck manufacturers crack down on these practices?

drive it forever · Dec 17, 2004

It seems that some dealers are of the opinion that they may "know better" when it comes to the viscosity. I bet you might see more examples of this in warmer climate states. The dealers can use any brand oil they want if it meets the specified warrenty specs. Using 10w30 over a 5wxx weight might make differences that could go either way as far as engine life goes under certain circumstances. I would guess most car makers dont think its worth the time and trouble to care about the oil the dealers use. Volkswagen might have steps in place to make sure that their dealers use the correct oil's.

Mystic · Dec 17, 2004

But say that a person is using the oil at the dealership and a oil-related warranty claim comes up. If the vehicle is a Ford or Honda vehicle with 5W-20 oil required, and the dealership was using 10w30 (or even 10W-40 which violates the warranty) the customer cannot be held responsible. After all, the customer was getting the oil changed at the dealership. The dealership would be in the blame.

Mike_dup1 · Dec 17, 2004

You assume they care what oil viscosity is in there. Unless someone tells then they would have no indication to want to know.

Most dealer have the most inexperienced people doing the oil changes. Sometimes it is worse than a quick-lube for quality. I once had my car serviced at the dealer. I found they overfilled the crankcase, aired my tires up to what the maximum that was on the sidewall and cleaned my dash with some Armor-all type product that caused a glare in the windshield.

quote:

So I have a question. Is there really a problem with new car dealerships using 10w30 oil instead of the 5W-20 or 5w30 oil that is supposed to be used? And if so, why don't the car and truck manufacturers crack down on these practices?

The dealer is independent. The manf. can recommend but cannot force the dealer to do anything.

eljefino · Dec 17, 2004

But what if the customer drops a car off, say a Chrysler 2.7 sludgemonster, gets the oil changed, and the receipt says 10w30 when the car wants 5w30? (Just guessing re the 2.7). Manufacturer is up to their butts in alligators and will slither out of any warranty claim. Selling/servicing dealer goes bankrupt/away, customer goes to another dealer with all paperwork when engine goes kaput. New dealer (or even the original slimeballs) with full backing from zone reps points to fine print in owners manual saying what oil to use and it's customer's fault.

If I were a customer and had any doubts about what was in the dealer's drum, I'd write "Use 5w20" (or whatever) on top of the work order when I drop the car off. Keep thy paper trail.

cruzan · Dec 17, 2004

quote:

The dealer is independent. The manf. can recommend but cannot force the dealer to do anything.

That's true to a point, the manufacturer always has the advantage over the dealership, lots of politics here. The manufacturer's district service manager visits once or twice a month, knows what is going on, and what he says goes. The dealership would not want engine warranty claims denied because they were using incorrect oil. It comes down to the DSM if they demand the correct oil it will be used if they don't the dealership can use what they want.

Look around the dealership and find the bulk oil containers, some are outside of the building. The containers are labeled with the brand and type of lubricant the driver is to deliver.

TallPaul · Dec 17, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by cruzan:
find the bulk oil containers, some are outside of the building.

I see potential contamination issues here.

Frank D · Dec 17, 2004

As I have stated in previous posts, the dealer is in business to make money and will use whatever he can get for the least amount of money as will any auto repair facility. Buyer beware, if improper materials were used by the dealer or any repair facility and the manufacturer voided the warranty due to this, it would be the responsibilty of the vehicle owner to repair his/her vehicle and then then to seek reimbursment from the repair facility that used the wrong materials probably through legal means.

cruzan · Dec 17, 2004

quote:

I see potential contamination issues here

The one I an thinking of has the tanks outside of the building but under an enclosure with a locked gate, you can see and read the labels on the front of the tanks. As far as being outside, well that's where the tanker truck was that delivered the oil.

I wouldn't be too parianoid about it, just ask the service writer what your dealer uses and if you want something else then bring it with you and tell them to use your oil instead, we get that occasionally, it's no problem.

Grossomotto · Dec 17, 2004

Just about any dino oil will make it through the warranty peroid for a new car. Heck, even an extended warranty, as long as you change it within the factory OCI. This is all the dealership is concerned about.

I don't trust the dealer any more than I trust Jiffy Lube. Some dealerships do tens of thousand of oil changes a year. Most will buy the cheapest approved oil they can buy.

If you really want a certain oil, buy it yourself and do your own changes. JMO.

ruking77 · Dec 17, 2004

Well, for sure most dealer's uses bulk oil. This is usually "packaged" in 55 gal drums.

For some of the bigger operations I am sure there is a break even formula for switching to mobil tanker delivery!? With of course capital expenditures for "leasehold" improvement, i.e., installed fluid dispensing systems. You can see this in qwiky lube places, but I am guessing the dealer's don't do the volume to justify things like dug out pits, where a technician can walk under to access the oil pan plug and oil filters, which would save the time and effort of jacking and lowering for which no money is made.

I think the last thing a dealer wants to do is to waste time, effort, management time and money on packaging, disposal, and effort in getting small quantities out of small containers. So for example, the local Toyota dealership where I get two of my business vehicles serviced, uses a calibrated oil pump to dispense engine oil. Since I bring my own oil filters and Mobil One synthetic oil, as a customer service, they will go to the trouble to use customer provided parts. I have never asked in 17 years, how many other folks do this, so I am guessing I am a deviant to the norm?

Consumer Reports a long time ago, (10 years?) which is almost getting to be ancient history in so far as how far oils have come, noted there was almost rampant inconsistency, even in "the same oil". For some reason they never did any follow up testing!

Also keep in mind, while it is seamless to the customer, and the only place you probably see it is in the "extra" charge for EPA disposal of used oil; is the fact the location HAS to comply with reception of oil and disposal of used oil. So there is a logistical procedure that for the purposes of this discussion has to make economic sense.

[ December 18, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]

LarryL · Dec 18, 2004

So, someone out there thinks that when there is an engine failure that there is someone looking at viscosity....not. They are looking at things that can used to duck warranty coverage, after all it's the customer's fault.

There's a quicky lube in my area that has a 5w30 sticker on a nozzle, but the drum has this '30WHD'. What do you think that means? The same markings are on the other two drums. There is only one nozzle there. And, out in the lot, lined up for service was a Honda Odyssey (5w-20) and several other cars that take at least 5w30. The guy doing the change said what's the difference, it's all just engine oil. And another note about these places. This one had seven different additives you could have added during your oil change. Not one was something disscussed here in any favorable light. They also sell buffalo chips to stick on your gas tank........honest, for several hundred bucks, ouch!

So, the moral is, if you can, change it yourself, and if you don't know how, learn.

LarryL · Dec 18, 2004

So, someone out there thinks that when there is an engine failure that there is someone looking at viscosity....not. They are looking at things that can used to duck warranty coverage, after all it's the customer's fault.

There's a quicky lube in my area that has a 5w30 sticker on a nozzle, but the drum has this '30WHD'. What do you think that means? The same markings are on the other two drums. There is only one nozzle there. And, out in the lot, lined up for service was a Honda Odyssey (5w-20) and several other cars that take at least 5w30. The guy doing the change said what's the difference, it's all just engine oil. And another note about these places. This one had seven different additives you could have added during your oil change. Not one was something disscussed here in any favorable light. They also sell buffalo chips to stick on your gas tank........honest, for several hundred bucks, ouch!

So, the moral is, if you can, change it yourself, and if you don't know how, learn.

ruking77 · Dec 18, 2004

Engine damage due to any oil concerns is REMOTE!

Engine damage due to viscosity differences is even more REMOTE.

So because engine warranty examples are so remote, they use the "lack of compliance" to make it even more remote for them to foot the bill!

An over all example. First of all, VW sells about 4% of TDI's (turbo diesels) of the total fleet sales in the USA. They basically recommended almost any viscosity, any oil, (depending on how you read the owner's manual) So forward looking, in an effort to block or cut down the remote chance of someone requiring engine warranty work, on the 2004 models with the introduction of the PD (pump duese version) they did two things: 1. they required an almost unavailable oil that had to meet a VW 505.01 specification. 2 in the owners manual they put in clear dire warnings that in the case of (VERY REMOTE) occurences requiring engine warranty work: use of any other oil that did not meet the specification would a. be rejected b. and use of any other oil could cause a crash!!!??? c. of course the VW dealers had in their pipeline, the required Castrol 505.01 for sale at usually double the off the shelf synthetic Mobil One. (8-12 dollars a quart)

.

The real curious thing is not a day goes by that on the VW threads that someone who gets aon oil change at a dealer complains that they put in the wrong or "normal" oil.

Upshot?

Remote to ZERO claims of engine damage due to the WRONG oil, especially by the dealer!!???

Keep in mind, they are really only concern on whose nickel it is on during the warranty period. So if a dealer does a steady diet of "wrong" or normal oil, the chances of engine warranty work are still remote. In VW's case that is 4 years or 50,000 miles. Of course at 50,001 miles (now it is YOUR nickel) they would be happy to fix your engine!!! ( but even that would be REMOTE!!)

[ December 18, 2004, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]

Gary Allan · Dec 18, 2004

quote:

Manufacturers go to the trouble and expense of having excellent oil like Motorcraft 5w20 developed, or they test and contract with suppliers to put their name only on high quality oils like Toyota does with Mobil. They could just re-lable the lowest price trash oil they can find, but they don't.

They didn't do it for the health of the engine. They did it for the fractional boost in CAFE ratings where a fractional reduction in viscosity yielded marginal, but measurable, gains. This stuff is just on the inside edge of the border between 20 and 30 weight. 600,000 units getting .1 mpg more adds up to 30,000 gas guzzlers that they can sell.

That is, the development, in this particular case, had little to do with the engine requirements and more to do with Ford's desires for using oil as a integral component in their EPA/CAFE agenda. To the consumer from a "reliability" stand point, again in this case, the engine could probably care less what is put in it (within reason).

They didn't do this for "the betterment of mankind" (cue emotional music

)

Mike_dup1 · Dec 18, 2004

quote:

The dealership that sold a customer a $20,000 or $50,000 car (or cars) has a lot more at stake than a jiffy-lube when it comes to keeping it's customers satisfied. Manufacturer's customer service surveys are very important to dealerships.

Surprising as it may seem, a great majority of customers could care less what oil and viscosity the dealer puts in their cars. They blindly follow the dealer advice. Those who come in a demand a certain oil are considered to be PITA by most dealers and they can do without those kinds of customers. They want customers who are loyal to them and buy all their service from them. Thats the name of the game to the dealer, get you to come back again and again.

I agree that the shops use whatever brand they can get, to them "oil is oil" and whatever makes them the most profit, they will use. A GM dealer I buy my vehicles from uses all Marathon products and only because that company is a big customer of theirs and is located about 3 blocks away. Small town where everyone knows everyone. Only 1 car dealer in town and its Chev-Buick-Pont-Cadillac-GMC dealer

cruzan · Dec 18, 2004

quote:

Just about any dino oil will make it through the warranty peroid for a new car.

Manufacturers go to the trouble and expense of having excellent oil like Motorcraft 5w20 developed, or they test and contract with suppliers to put their name only on high quality oils like Toyota does with Mobil. They could just re-lable the lowest price trash oil they can find, but they don't.

quote:

Most dealer have the most inexperienced people doing the oil changes.

It would be a serious waste of resources to have master certified technicians doing 30-minute oil changes, not to mention making those oil changes cost a lot more. Where do you think those top of the line, experienced, master techs started many years ago...the express lube lane.

The dealership that sold a customer a $20,000 or $50,000 car (or cars) has a lot more at stake than a jiffy-lube when it comes to keeping it's customers satisfied. Manufacturer's customer service surveys are very important to dealerships.

Every dealership is a reflection of it's owner, there are both good and bad out there like any other business.

drive it forever · Dec 18, 2004

Valvoline seems to be a dealers favorite around where I live.

C4Dave · Dec 18, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
They didn't do it for the health of the engine. They did it for the fractional boost in CAFE ratings where a fractional reduction in viscosity yielded marginal, but measurable, gains. This stuff is just on the inside edge of the border between 20 and 30 weight. 600,000 units getting .1 mpg more adds up to 30,000 gas guzzlers that they can sell.

That is, the development, in this particular case, had little to do with the engine requirements and more to do with Ford's desires for using oil as a integral component in their EPA/CAFE agenda. To the consumer from a "reliability" stand point, again in this case, the engine could probably care less what is put in it (within reason).

They didn't do this for "the betterment of mankind" (cue emotional music

)

So why did Honda jump on the 5w20 bandwagon? They certainly don't need 0.1 mpg better fuel mileage. Honda claims they did it because it was the right thing to do.

moribundman · Dec 18, 2004

quote:

The dealer is independent. The manf. can recommend but cannot force the dealer to do anything.

Not quite. The dealer is usually "authorized." It would be simple for the car manufacturer to enforce their service requirements -- maybe not in the USA.

A question for new car dealership mechanics.

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