I wholeheartedly agree with every statement you made above.
Let's get a beer!
Let's get a beer!
A list of 2011 cars to buy, or not to buy.
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Cross Mazda6 off that list.
The Mazda6 will cease production alongside the Ford Mustang at Auto Alliance. Future Mazda6es will be made in Hofu, Japan.
Mazda3 production will be coming to N.America....but not in a Michigan UAW plant. Mazda is building a plant in conjunction with Sumitomo in Mexico.
Mazda wants to continue to build with Ford and the UAW at AutoAlliance but I have no idea what they will build there and if Ford is interested. It seems like Ford wants to further distance itself from the marque that gave them the Courier, Probe, Escort, Escape, and Fusion.
The Mazda6 will cease production alongside the Ford Mustang at Auto Alliance. Future Mazda6es will be made in Hofu, Japan.
Mazda3 production will be coming to N.America....but not in a Michigan UAW plant. Mazda is building a plant in conjunction with Sumitomo in Mexico.
Mazda wants to continue to build with Ford and the UAW at AutoAlliance but I have no idea what they will build there and if Ford is interested. It seems like Ford wants to further distance itself from the marque that gave them the Courier, Probe, Escort, Escape, and Fusion.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: Patman
Whatever happened to just buying a car because you like it? Sheesh.
Happens here. I buy what I want as I'm the one who has to WORK hard for my $$.
People need to EARN my $$.
My views on the issue exactly. It's weird driving a Toyota truck made by the UAW, especially when the people who complanin are driving a Mexican made Fusion.
Originally Posted By: Patman
Whatever happened to just buying a car because you like it? Sheesh.
Happens here. I buy what I want as I'm the one who has to WORK hard for my $$.
People need to EARN my $$.
My views on the issue exactly. It's weird driving a Toyota truck made by the UAW, especially when the people who complanin are driving a Mexican made Fusion.
Originally Posted By: Tundraz
The Day after GM got its bailout Money it announced a brand new Billion dollar plant but guess where? - In Brazil. Get it now?
Gee , i wonder why the autoworkers at HOnda in Ohio do not want a union?
Good, that makes sense, as they sell a ton of cars in SA. Makes for good business, just like it would be foolish not to invest in other emerging markets like China as one example.
But even if it makes you mad that they invest in foreign countries that buy lots of thier products, does it tell the whole story? Hardly...I guess you missed these announcements, all also since the loan.
7/18/2011 GM invests 328 million at Flint Assembly
7/12/2011 GM invests 129 million in OH, IN and MI tranny plants
6/13/2011 GM invests 20 million at Fairfax assembly
6/8/2011 GM invests 49 million at Bedford Powertrain
6/6/2011 GM invests 130 million at Warren Tech Center
5/4/2011 GM invests 131 million on Bowling Green retooling
4/12/2011 GM invests 100 million Rochester NY
3/30/2011 GM invests 30 million at Pontiac stamping
11/24/2010 GM invests 163 million at Flint, Defiance, Bay City Engine Operations
10/28/2010 GM invests 190 million at Lansing Grand River operations
10/20/2010 GM invests 37 million in Lansing Delta Twp plant
10/7/2010 GM invests 145 million at Orion Assembly
9/29/2010 GM invests additional 24 million in Baltimore
9/17/2010 GM invests 483 million at Spring Hll Engine operations
8/18/2010 GM invests additional 20 million at Bay City Powertrain
4/27/2010 GM invests 890 million at 5 different US Powertrain plants
4/21/2010 GM invests 257 million at Fairfax and Hamtramck Assembly operations
2/23/2010 GM invested 350 million at Lordstown adds third shift
1/26/2010 GM invests 246 million into Baltimore battery/hybrid operations
12/7/2009 GM Volt development/assembly investment in Michigan totals 700 million in 8 locations
You mention small operations in three states by the transplants...a mere drop in the bucket. Please, show me a similar list of investments in American plants from the transplants over the last two years. I would love to see the list, but I wont hold my breath waiting for you to post it becuase it doesnt exist. Even in the three states you cited the domestics trounce the transplants for total economic impact and investments.
The Day after GM got its bailout Money it announced a brand new Billion dollar plant but guess where? - In Brazil. Get it now?
Gee , i wonder why the autoworkers at HOnda in Ohio do not want a union?
Good, that makes sense, as they sell a ton of cars in SA. Makes for good business, just like it would be foolish not to invest in other emerging markets like China as one example.
But even if it makes you mad that they invest in foreign countries that buy lots of thier products, does it tell the whole story? Hardly...I guess you missed these announcements, all also since the loan.
7/18/2011 GM invests 328 million at Flint Assembly
7/12/2011 GM invests 129 million in OH, IN and MI tranny plants
6/13/2011 GM invests 20 million at Fairfax assembly
6/8/2011 GM invests 49 million at Bedford Powertrain
6/6/2011 GM invests 130 million at Warren Tech Center
5/4/2011 GM invests 131 million on Bowling Green retooling
4/12/2011 GM invests 100 million Rochester NY
3/30/2011 GM invests 30 million at Pontiac stamping
11/24/2010 GM invests 163 million at Flint, Defiance, Bay City Engine Operations
10/28/2010 GM invests 190 million at Lansing Grand River operations
10/20/2010 GM invests 37 million in Lansing Delta Twp plant
10/7/2010 GM invests 145 million at Orion Assembly
9/29/2010 GM invests additional 24 million in Baltimore
9/17/2010 GM invests 483 million at Spring Hll Engine operations
8/18/2010 GM invests additional 20 million at Bay City Powertrain
4/27/2010 GM invests 890 million at 5 different US Powertrain plants
4/21/2010 GM invests 257 million at Fairfax and Hamtramck Assembly operations
2/23/2010 GM invested 350 million at Lordstown adds third shift
1/26/2010 GM invests 246 million into Baltimore battery/hybrid operations
12/7/2009 GM Volt development/assembly investment in Michigan totals 700 million in 8 locations
You mention small operations in three states by the transplants...a mere drop in the bucket. Please, show me a similar list of investments in American plants from the transplants over the last two years. I would love to see the list, but I wont hold my breath waiting for you to post it becuase it doesnt exist. Even in the three states you cited the domestics trounce the transplants for total economic impact and investments.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Cross Mazda6 off that list.
The Mazda6 will cease production alongside the Ford Mustang at Auto Alliance. Future Mazda6es will be made in Hofu, Japan.
Mazda3 production will be coming to N.America....but not in a Michigan UAW plant. Mazda is building a plant in conjunction with Sumitomo in Mexico.
Mazda wants to continue to build with Ford and the UAW at AutoAlliance but I have no idea what they will build there and if Ford is interested. It seems like Ford wants to further distance itself from the marque that gave them the Courier, Probe, Escort, Escape, and Fusion.
No argument at all that the "marriage" was beneficial to both parties Spazdog. But why do you continually couch the wording as what Ford got from Mazda as if it weren't a two way street.
Without Fords investment and manufacturing partnership it's likely that Mazda would have no presence in NA at all. On two seperate occasions Mazda has faced financial meltdowns and it was Ford money both times that saw them through and kept them in this market.
It is also beneficial to acknowledge the massive turn around at Mazda that was overseen by Ford managers. Most of the good engines and platforms they currently offer were approved and greenlighted by Ford men when they were in charge of Mazda. The work that Wallace and Fields did in turning around the Mazda design and product planning for NA should not be discounted, the fruits of Ford efforts are what we see today.
Personally, I wish they would sustain this relationship. They fit well together....and Mazda needs Ford, or some other large partner imo. At their size, they will have a rough time moving forward without a development/design/engineering partner. Not that they couldn't do it all themselves, but the economy of scale afforded by partnering with a larger entity are invaluable.
Cross Mazda6 off that list.
The Mazda6 will cease production alongside the Ford Mustang at Auto Alliance. Future Mazda6es will be made in Hofu, Japan.
Mazda3 production will be coming to N.America....but not in a Michigan UAW plant. Mazda is building a plant in conjunction with Sumitomo in Mexico.
Mazda wants to continue to build with Ford and the UAW at AutoAlliance but I have no idea what they will build there and if Ford is interested. It seems like Ford wants to further distance itself from the marque that gave them the Courier, Probe, Escort, Escape, and Fusion.
No argument at all that the "marriage" was beneficial to both parties Spazdog. But why do you continually couch the wording as what Ford got from Mazda as if it weren't a two way street.
Without Fords investment and manufacturing partnership it's likely that Mazda would have no presence in NA at all. On two seperate occasions Mazda has faced financial meltdowns and it was Ford money both times that saw them through and kept them in this market.
It is also beneficial to acknowledge the massive turn around at Mazda that was overseen by Ford managers. Most of the good engines and platforms they currently offer were approved and greenlighted by Ford men when they were in charge of Mazda. The work that Wallace and Fields did in turning around the Mazda design and product planning for NA should not be discounted, the fruits of Ford efforts are what we see today.
Personally, I wish they would sustain this relationship. They fit well together....and Mazda needs Ford, or some other large partner imo. At their size, they will have a rough time moving forward without a development/design/engineering partner. Not that they couldn't do it all themselves, but the economy of scale afforded by partnering with a larger entity are invaluable.
Originally Posted By: Hermann
My views on the issue exactly. It's weird driving a Toyota truck made by the UAW, especially when the people who complanin are driving a Mexican made Fusion.
You do know that some major components found on your Taco are sourced from Toyotas Tijuana operations, right?
My views on the issue exactly. It's weird driving a Toyota truck made by the UAW, especially when the people who complanin are driving a Mexican made Fusion.
You do know that some major components found on your Taco are sourced from Toyotas Tijuana operations, right?
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Cross Mazda6 off that list.
The Mazda6 will cease production alongside the Ford Mustang at Auto Alliance. Future Mazda6es will be made in Hofu, Japan.
Mazda3 production will be coming to N.America....but not in a Michigan UAW plant. Mazda is building a plant in conjunction with Sumitomo in Mexico.
Mazda wants to continue to build with Ford and the UAW at AutoAlliance but I have no idea what they will build there and if Ford is interested. It seems like Ford wants to further distance itself from the marque that gave them the Courier, Probe, Escort, Escape, and Fusion.
No argument at all that the "marriage" was beneficial to both parties Spazdog. But why do you continually couch the wording as what Ford got from Mazda as if it weren't a two way street.
Without Fords investment and manufacturing partnership it's likely that Mazda would have no presence in NA at all. On two seperate occasions Mazda has faced financial meltdowns and it was Ford money both times that saw them through and kept them in this market.
It is also beneficial to acknowledge the massive turn around at Mazda that was overseen by Ford managers. Most of the good engines and platforms they currently offer were approved and greenlighted by Ford men when they were in charge of Mazda. The work that Wallace and Fields did in turning around the Mazda design and product planning for NA should not be discounted, the fruits of Ford efforts are what we see today.
Personally, I wish they would sustain this relationship. They fit well together....and Mazda needs Ford, or some other large partner imo. At their size, they will have a rough time moving forward without a development/design/engineering partner. Not that they couldn't do it all themselves, but the economy of scale afforded by partnering with a larger entity are invaluable.
I agree.
Mutually beneficial.
The much lauded Mazda3 is derived from the Focus. Not the C170 Focus that N.America got. It was the C1 platform that Ford said was "too expensive" for the N. American market.
Ford also hurt them with those horrible transmissions they saddled the Protege' and 626 with, but I'm sure Ford capital helped them develop the Miller-Cycle Millenia S, and continue to develop Wankel rotaries when no one else would.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Cross Mazda6 off that list.
The Mazda6 will cease production alongside the Ford Mustang at Auto Alliance. Future Mazda6es will be made in Hofu, Japan.
Mazda3 production will be coming to N.America....but not in a Michigan UAW plant. Mazda is building a plant in conjunction with Sumitomo in Mexico.
Mazda wants to continue to build with Ford and the UAW at AutoAlliance but I have no idea what they will build there and if Ford is interested. It seems like Ford wants to further distance itself from the marque that gave them the Courier, Probe, Escort, Escape, and Fusion.
No argument at all that the "marriage" was beneficial to both parties Spazdog. But why do you continually couch the wording as what Ford got from Mazda as if it weren't a two way street.
Without Fords investment and manufacturing partnership it's likely that Mazda would have no presence in NA at all. On two seperate occasions Mazda has faced financial meltdowns and it was Ford money both times that saw them through and kept them in this market.
It is also beneficial to acknowledge the massive turn around at Mazda that was overseen by Ford managers. Most of the good engines and platforms they currently offer were approved and greenlighted by Ford men when they were in charge of Mazda. The work that Wallace and Fields did in turning around the Mazda design and product planning for NA should not be discounted, the fruits of Ford efforts are what we see today.
Personally, I wish they would sustain this relationship. They fit well together....and Mazda needs Ford, or some other large partner imo. At their size, they will have a rough time moving forward without a development/design/engineering partner. Not that they couldn't do it all themselves, but the economy of scale afforded by partnering with a larger entity are invaluable.
I agree.
Mutually beneficial.
The much lauded Mazda3 is derived from the Focus. Not the C170 Focus that N.America got. It was the C1 platform that Ford said was "too expensive" for the N. American market.
Ford also hurt them with those horrible transmissions they saddled the Protege' and 626 with, but I'm sure Ford capital helped them develop the Miller-Cycle Millenia S, and continue to develop Wankel rotaries when no one else would.
LS2JSTS, you post some good facts but I think it just falls on deaf ears, because a couple posts later someone will say, "but foreign brand X has a plant in State Y, and domestic brand A has a plant in foreign country B. Equivalency!". Then you explain how it is not economic and employment equivalency, but the cycle repeats itself.
I don't think they really want to know or care. I just wished they would be honest and say, "I really don't care much about the US economy and employment", or at least not even bring the claim up. On the other hand, if the foreign brand vehicle is US assembled and has some domestic content, that is valid. But that isn't full equivalency. I only wished it was.
Although I think it's important, I'm not saying the US economy and employment should trump everything else when comes to buying a car and if there is a valid reason to not buy a domestic that would be fine. The thing is you rarely if ever really see valid reason given for purchasing a foreign competitor vehicle. What you see mostly is bias and misperception. I would need a compelling reason to buy a foreign brand over domestic, and 90% of the time I'd say it is just not there.
I think a lot of people actually want to send their money out of the US economy. They probably think doing so won't undermined themselves as long as they don't work directly in the industry but it can and does.
Anyway, you can't change some people's mind no matter what the facts are you present. I have my own thinking on what their motives are that I won't go in to. But some people might be open to facts. And as long as some are going to keep arguing equivalency when there isn't, I think someone should counter that. Let's face it, with the amount of misinformation out there why would anyone buy a domestic brand?
I don't think they really want to know or care. I just wished they would be honest and say, "I really don't care much about the US economy and employment", or at least not even bring the claim up. On the other hand, if the foreign brand vehicle is US assembled and has some domestic content, that is valid. But that isn't full equivalency. I only wished it was.
Although I think it's important, I'm not saying the US economy and employment should trump everything else when comes to buying a car and if there is a valid reason to not buy a domestic that would be fine. The thing is you rarely if ever really see valid reason given for purchasing a foreign competitor vehicle. What you see mostly is bias and misperception. I would need a compelling reason to buy a foreign brand over domestic, and 90% of the time I'd say it is just not there.
I think a lot of people actually want to send their money out of the US economy. They probably think doing so won't undermined themselves as long as they don't work directly in the industry but it can and does.
Anyway, you can't change some people's mind no matter what the facts are you present. I have my own thinking on what their motives are that I won't go in to. But some people might be open to facts. And as long as some are going to keep arguing equivalency when there isn't, I think someone should counter that. Let's face it, with the amount of misinformation out there why would anyone buy a domestic brand?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
LS2JSTS, you post some good facts but I think it just falls on deaf ears, because a couple posts later someone will say, "but foreign brand X has a plant in State Y, and domestic brand A has a plant in foreign country B. Equivalency!". Then you explain how it is not economic and employment equivalency, but the cycle repeats itself.
I don't think they really want to know or care. I just wished they would be honest and say, "I really don't care much about the US economy and employment", or at least not even bring the claim up. On the other hand, if the foreign brand vehicle is US assembled and has some domestic content, that is valid. But that isn't full equivalency. I only wished it was.
Although I think it's important, I'm not saying the US economy and employment should trump everything else when comes to buying a car and if there is a valid reason to not buy a domestic that would be fine. The thing is you rarely if ever really see valid reason given for purchasing a foreign competitor vehicle. What you see mostly is bias and misperception. I would need a compelling reason to buy a foreign brand over domestic, and 90% of the time I'd say it is just not there.
I think a lot of people actually want to send their money out of the US economy. They probably think doing so won't undermined themselves as long as they don't work directly in the industry but it can and does.
Anyway, you can't change some people's mind no matter what the facts are you present. I have my own thinking on what their motives are that I won't go in to. But some people might be open to facts. And as long as some are going to keep arguing equivalency when there isn't, I think someone should counter that. Let's face it, with the amount of misinformation out there why would anyone buy a domestic brand?
Good post sir.
LS2JSTS, you post some good facts but I think it just falls on deaf ears, because a couple posts later someone will say, "but foreign brand X has a plant in State Y, and domestic brand A has a plant in foreign country B. Equivalency!". Then you explain how it is not economic and employment equivalency, but the cycle repeats itself.
I don't think they really want to know or care. I just wished they would be honest and say, "I really don't care much about the US economy and employment", or at least not even bring the claim up. On the other hand, if the foreign brand vehicle is US assembled and has some domestic content, that is valid. But that isn't full equivalency. I only wished it was.
Although I think it's important, I'm not saying the US economy and employment should trump everything else when comes to buying a car and if there is a valid reason to not buy a domestic that would be fine. The thing is you rarely if ever really see valid reason given for purchasing a foreign competitor vehicle. What you see mostly is bias and misperception. I would need a compelling reason to buy a foreign brand over domestic, and 90% of the time I'd say it is just not there.
I think a lot of people actually want to send their money out of the US economy. They probably think doing so won't undermined themselves as long as they don't work directly in the industry but it can and does.
Anyway, you can't change some people's mind no matter what the facts are you present. I have my own thinking on what their motives are that I won't go in to. But some people might be open to facts. And as long as some are going to keep arguing equivalency when there isn't, I think someone should counter that. Let's face it, with the amount of misinformation out there why would anyone buy a domestic brand?
Good post sir.
I have always owned american brand cars, but the attitude and the degree of political involvement have completely changed my mind. look at the list of cars i own. Any and all future cars will be non-UAW cars. I feel for the workers but the thug attitude of the union bosses have turned around my love of american iron.
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Propflux01
$100 Site Donor 2025
I have worked for both union companies and non-union companies. Both have turned out junk, and both have had [censored] work conditions on either side. I will not buy strictly "American", as in many cases I end up paying more to fix the junk I get than I would buying "foreign". I buy What I perceive and have a history of good service and quality with no matter where it's made. Buying "Union" does not necessarily guarantee buying quality.
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I have always owned american brand cars, but the attitude and the degree of political involvement have completely changed my mind. look at the list of cars i own. Any and all future cars will be non-UAW cars. I feel for the workers but the thug attitude of the union bosses have turned around my love of american iron.
No offense, but it looks like (from your list) that you buy old used beaters. I don't think you'll have much effect on the UAW.
I have always owned american brand cars, but the attitude and the degree of political involvement have completely changed my mind. look at the list of cars i own. Any and all future cars will be non-UAW cars. I feel for the workers but the thug attitude of the union bosses have turned around my love of american iron.
No offense, but it looks like (from your list) that you buy old used beaters. I don't think you'll have much effect on the UAW.
Hermann
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: Hermann
My views on the issue exactly. It's weird driving a Toyota truck made by the UAW, especially when the people who complanin are driving a Mexican made Fusion.
You do know that some major components found on your Taco are sourced from Toyotas Tijuana operations, right?
And I know that some parts are American sourced. Radiator battery to name a couple. Some people just dont get it. Its a world economy. Get over it.
Originally Posted By: Hermann
My views on the issue exactly. It's weird driving a Toyota truck made by the UAW, especially when the people who complanin are driving a Mexican made Fusion.
You do know that some major components found on your Taco are sourced from Toyotas Tijuana operations, right?
And I know that some parts are American sourced. Radiator battery to name a couple. Some people just dont get it. Its a world economy. Get over it.
Quote:
Buying "Union" does not necessarily guarantee buying quality.
I agree 100%
Buying "Union" does not necessarily guarantee buying quality.
I agree 100%
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I have always owned american brand cars, but the attitude and the degree of political involvement have completely changed my mind. look at the list of cars i own. Any and all future cars will be non-UAW cars. I feel for the workers but the thug attitude of the union bosses have turned around my love of american iron.
No offense, but it looks like (from your list) that you buy old used beaters. I don't think you'll have much effect on the UAW.
With the exception of the saturn and the olds, they were'nt old when i bought them. With a son in college i will get a few more miles out of the escape then replace it , the olds is a backup for my sons car. My point is my next 2 cars which will be new , will not be an american brand. The UAW is pushing away buyers.
Originally Posted By: spasm3
I have always owned american brand cars, but the attitude and the degree of political involvement have completely changed my mind. look at the list of cars i own. Any and all future cars will be non-UAW cars. I feel for the workers but the thug attitude of the union bosses have turned around my love of american iron.
No offense, but it looks like (from your list) that you buy old used beaters. I don't think you'll have much effect on the UAW.
With the exception of the saturn and the olds, they were'nt old when i bought them. With a son in college i will get a few more miles out of the escape then replace it , the olds is a backup for my sons car. My point is my next 2 cars which will be new , will not be an american brand. The UAW is pushing away buyers.
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Originally Posted By: Hermann
...Some people just dont get it.
You got that right!
...Some people just dont get it.
You got that right!
Propflux01
$100 Site Donor 2025
Originally Posted By: dishdude
The union members generally don't engineer the product you are buying.
True, But the work of union people are not necessarily better quality workers than non-union, which seems the point of this thread so far.
The union members generally don't engineer the product you are buying.
True, But the work of union people are not necessarily better quality workers than non-union, which seems the point of this thread so far.
[/quote]
The Day after GM got its bailout Money it announced a brand new Billion dollar plant but guess where? - In Brazil. Get it now?
[/quote]
That's because people in Brazil buy GM cars. They always loved Chevy. They're wise to build a factory where their cars are bought.
Get it?
The Day after GM got its bailout Money it announced a brand new Billion dollar plant but guess where? - In Brazil. Get it now?
[/quote]
That's because people in Brazil buy GM cars. They always loved Chevy. They're wise to build a factory where their cars are bought.
Get it?
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