9MM, 10MM or 40 SW
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9mm is the world most popular military and police cartridge. The round is has sufficient power for humans, with enough ammo in a magazine to be effective in a firefight or defensive situation. I have a couple 9mm semi-autos.
40 S&W was a popular caliber in the 90s, and many US police depts used it with success. It has more power than the 9mm, with the sacrifice of mag capacity and recoil control. I do not own a 40cal.
10mm, in its proper form is very powerful, supersonic round, that has roughly the same power as a 357mag, at full power, and 40cal at the typical power loadings. The edge over 10 vs 40 is mag capacity, unless we are talking full power 10mm, then we are talking power and mag capacity.
For me, there are 2 calibers, 9mm for general shooting, as a combat round, a service round. Cheap, and guns \ mags are available everywhere, light recoil and so on. On the "special" application side, 45acp gets my vote. Plenty of power, and highly accurate. Plus super quiet with a suppressor, being as it is typically sub sonic.
Which have you chosen? Late to the conversation, and did not know BITOG had a firearms section.
I forgot to add, out of the 3, I would go 9mm, in a Glock 17/19 for all around purposes. Cheap easy to shoot and learn. Some 9mm loading can be used for dangerous game protection.
Assuming you are new to shooting, cant really go wrong with Glock 17 or 19 in 9mm, or Glock 20 in 10.
Assuming you are new to shooting, cant really go wrong with Glock 17 or 19 in 9mm, or Glock 20 in 10.
Or Glock 45, which for me, is the best of both worlds (17/19). Especially if one has larger hands.
Not sure of a G45. Not up On all the glock numbers and what they mean. But sure
I pretty much only use 45 Auto and 45 Colt. I break out my 9 mm only when I'm really bored.
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He didn't address 10MM, I've never owned one, but most people pack them for bear/large creatures in the western US... That should be enough info.
To give my opinion-
9mm - lowest/smallest you should go. I own/carry one here and there and I ONLY carry 124gr +P or +P+ (hard to find today) JHP from Federal, Speer (Gold Dot) or Winchester. Do NOT carry 115 gr or 147 gr. Both have been proven inferior to 124 gr JHP.
.40 S&W - I don't have one, but if I did, I'd carry 165 gr JHP in Gold Dot, Federal or Winchester Ranger T
.357 Sig - I carry this often. I carry 125gr JHP Speer Gold Dots or Federal
.45 ACP - my primary carry in a S&W Shield, I carry 230 gr JHP from Federal or Winchester
I really want to carry a .357 Magnum. People might say there are only 6 shots. Show me someone who will still be trying to attack me or someone around me after I fire two of them. The sound, the percussion, the muzzle flash - any of those three will drive away 99.9%.
I love shooting data, can you point me to some sources?
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No, I can't. I'm old and I've paid attention to people like Massad Ayoob and others for years, especially when they would talk about this subject. There were several tests, research cases on Law Enforcement shootings where it was studied what particular round/loading gave the best results, etc. It was easy for me to remember, that's why I stated it above. The best performing round in a 9mm, based on all that, was/is a 124gr JHP, preferably loaded at +P or +P+ pressures.
9mm is also the bottom of the barrel with regards to performance among 9mm, .40, .357 Sig, 10mm, .38 special and .357 Mag.
What caliber weapon do I have the most of? 9mm. I cannot figure out why, other than I bought many of them at decent prices. I guess I also had a decent amount of confidence in the 124 gr round. Another point of contention is that when I bought them, there was no S&W Shield in .45 ACP.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to get shot with a 9mm, not even a 115gr round nose.
6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Same. I don't want to take a .22 short center mass. Most 9mm is objectively better than .38 sp (but things like barrel length and loading can negate some of those findings). I recently started shooting a .38 again, and I would not carry it - but it is fun to shoot.
Ammo brand choices matter somewhat - there are 115gr offerings that have more energy than 124gr. In todays world +p in 9mm doesn't guarantee +p performance. There are more disappointing "Defense Ammo" jhp's than there are quality ones imo.
Just from another old timer to another, the FBI did a really lengthy and exhaustive study a few years ago and they found out that most of the time it takes an average of 2 shots to stop a threat, no matter if it is .40, 9mm, .45 acp, or .357 sig - caliber made no difference statistically. I try to discourage the belief that "this is the manstopper round/caliber" because the data just isn't there. That's why LEO agencies and the feds are all going back to 9mm. Me personally, if it was convenient, I'd pack a double stack 10mm..... but it isn't so I try to choose a quality 9mm ammo. What that boils down to is that a 115gr 9mm jhp is about as effective as a 180gr .40 jhp.
I greatly respect Mas Ayoob. He knows an awful lot.
I also greatly prefer the 124gr offerings in 9mm (especially out of full size, my carry gun does get some 115's on occasion just because I do really like 115gr remington jhp - and it used to could be had at about .30/rd and I have quite a bit left). It's a good compromise, the 124gr but it's not really measurably better in a torso.
I'm pretty sure that in comparison to .38spl, 9mm isn't the bottom of the barrel. It's my understanding that .38spl rounds have been downloaded over the years and have lost a fair bit of their pop. Wiki lists max pressure for the 38spl at 17,500 and the max pressure for the 9mm at 35,000 (both SAMMI)
This is correct.
I have a conversion cylinder for my .38SPL Blackhawk, 9mm is even hotter than .38 P+ that is available (rarely)
I would say the 9x19 has most technology put into it, it's getting to be the LEO go to, big capacity too. The 40 was the answer, but less capacity,much more recoil and cost. The Ted Nuggent cartridge; I believe he lives by 10. Many people are big on the 10, like swapping barrels and shooting 40SW in G20. Would say it works well against big game and that most feel better with this than 5 shot revolvers in 44MAG/454 Casull. John Moses Browning,1911, USMC and old timers live by the mindset that bigger is better. This is a slow mover but makes a big hole. It's downfall is usually low capacity. We hear that 7 is all you need. John Wick had 7 million dollar bounty and was allowed 7 rds. Some brands like Para Ordnance had a double stack, but it's not common. I would say the 9 Kurz,7.65 Browning(380) needs some love. It's not cheap, but lots of great models carry this cartridge including the Sig 232, Walther PPK, etc. Downside, definitely needs to up the grain load to help cycling. Recommend no less than 95, but preferably 100-102grains.
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I don't get all the desire for 15+ rounds of whatever for a citizen carry. I bet with all non-LEO and all off-duty LEO defensive shootings, less than 10 rounds were fired in 99.5% of the cases.
ALL self-defense gurus will teach and tell you that you should focus on learning the weapon, learn how to shoot it under stress and learn how to make your shots count. That means hitting your target; shot placement, etc.
Quote all the data you want about .38 Special, .45 ACP, etc., If you place 2-3 shots on high-quality, self-defense ammo in the center of mass of a subject, you are probably good. The one caliber that I have always heard of issues with is 9MM. Usually with drugged-up individuals with heavy clothing on.
ALL self-defense gurus will teach and tell you that you should focus on learning the weapon, learn how to shoot it under stress and learn how to make your shots count. That means hitting your target; shot placement, etc.
Quote all the data you want about .38 Special, .45 ACP, etc., If you place 2-3 shots on high-quality, self-defense ammo in the center of mass of a subject, you are probably good. The one caliber that I have always heard of issues with is 9MM. Usually with drugged-up individuals with heavy clothing on.
In actual LEO defensive encounters -
1. What was the ratio of shots fired to center mass hits?
2. How many assailants were present?
3. How many shots were actually fired?
If LEOs averaged 100% hits, and only faced one assailant, then, they would need nothing more than a revolver. The same math would apply to civilians with that set of assumptions.
But, I’ve seen statistics, where in actual police encounters, officers tend to use their entire magazine, with a hit rate of between 20 and 30%.
So, for civilian carry, do you expect a much higher level of marksmanship than trained LEOs are able to accomplish?
Further, for civilian carry, do you guarantee that they will only ever face just one assailant?
Part of the reason that 9 mm has become so popular, is that marksmanship tends to be better with the lower recoil round, and outcomes tend to be better when you have a greater number of rounds, to account for the actual hit rate in actual use by LEOs. That is, famously, why the FBI dropped the 10 mm and went back to the 9 mm.
People always talk about training to fight under stress but one ever actually does it. Because it is hard, expensive, and very time consuming.
How much force on force (live) training with simunation do you do? Square range shooting paper targets doesn’t count. Do you workout regularly? Is your diet on point? Are you in shape? Are you in good health? Do you have any injuries or handicaps that could hinder your ability to move around? Do you regularly train in hand to hand combat in case the gun fight turns into a grappling match over the weapon? Have you ever grappled with a live resisting opponent over a weapon?
All these things will affect your ability to fight. The less you can answer these in the affirmative the more chances (rounds) you’re probably going to need… Your worst day in practice will be better than your best day in real life… and most people don’t practice.
