96 Camaro ITE , LT1 Redline Brew vs. M1

[Terry]

Guys I have held off sharing this because like most race engines it has been to hades and back but in the spirt of full disclosure and learning by all lets take a look. Thanks to the owner for sharing.

Camaro is road driven but is primarily raced in SCCA ITE class.

Sharpshooters, the variables never stop changing here so please drink a beer or take a aspirin before reading this ! This is a normal road race SBC LT 1 problem here.


Data on left RL5w30 ,1 bottle Auto-RX , 12 oz LC, and 1 qt of residual Mobil 1 50/30 in the wet sump. 275 max oil temps with failed NEW lifters and slight scoring off center of one cam lobe.52,518 total miles,543 on oil, 160 track miles 275 max oil temp. W/oil cooler.K&N oil filter

Data on right Mobil 1 5w30 51,005 total miles, 855miles on oil,70 miles on track. New cam,lifters,pushrods,rockers installed 50 miles into this oil use. 310F max oil temps. Ran a few laps and dynoed tuning the engine without air filter. Fram oil filter.

Al 5 / 5

Cr 1 / 2

Fe 16 / 21

Cu 5 / 6

Pb 23 / 6

Sn 4 / 1

Mo 326 / 57

Ni 0 / 0

Mn 1 / 1

Ag 0 / 0

Ti 0/ 0

K 3 / 2

B 60 / 2

Si 25 / 47

Na 17 / 8

Ca 2585/ 2792

Mg 10 / 15

P 1050 / 737

Zn 1143/ 830

Ba 0/ 0

SUS vis 57.7 / 55.3

Flash 385 / 365

fuel none/ none

coolant none/none

water none/none

insolubles 0.4% / 0.4%

TBN 7.8 / 9.7


have at it.

[ September 16, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]

 

[Pablo]

Terry what do you WANT us to say? Race animals are difficult for mortals to interpret. Race cars with broken parts, please take all bets down!

I certain don't understand why anyone would run AutoRx in a stressed beast, Early in life??? With new parts?

Oil sure seems thin.....and the Redline was no help on the trash or it just seems like it stirred the trash up into solution (Pb)

 

[novadude]

quote:

---

I certain don't understand why anyone would run AutoRx in a stressed beast, Early in life??? With new parts?

---

Good Question.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

I certain don't understand why anyone would run AutoRx in a stressed beast, Early in life??? With new parts?

---

Their is a lot of wannabe chemists out their.

Pb is really high with Redline. Whats your take on that Terry? Viscosities of both oils are good.

 

[Al]

Did the lifters fail on the Redline cycle or the Mobil 1 cycle. I realize they were installed on the Mobil cycle. Is the lead from bearings due to debris in the engine from the failed lifters. Abrasive wear???

 

[Terry]

Lead is from the lifters failing ( redline interval),dirt ingression from the Mobil 1 and Red Line interval,residual wear from the super heating of the oil in the Mobil 1 run.

Auto-RX is being used to clean up the engine internally and build some improved ring seal. Many racers are using it while the engine runs to improve HP production now.

Theres a qt of used Mobil 1 5w30/15w50 in the Red Line run that is affecting the oxidation, flash, insolubles and vis stability of the Red Line run.

The engine is a former daily driver that the owner built into a SCCA race that he drives to the races. Residual internal carbon and contaminant deposits were an issue that Auto-RX, LC and FP are working on.


I hope to secure permission to share the post race season Red Line analysis from the owner, it will be Red Line 5w30 only, no oil adds.

TD

 

[buster]

Terry, thanks for sharing this.

 

[DJ]

Could you please

explain the lead is from the lifters failing thing?

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJ:
Could you please

explain the lead is from the lifters failing thing?

---

My initial SWAG was metal from the lifters going through the lower end bearings and making them unhappy, but Fe was lower on the oil change that had the high Pb

Waiting for the master to speak

 

[buster]

Redline has a tendency in some engines, with no problems, to show higher bearing wear or metals. It's the chemistry they use. It seems to be agressive on certain bearing materials. My wannebe chemistry "guess" thinks that if RL dropped the Moly down by 200ppm we'd see better results.

I know of no other oil using as much and I find it interesting how RL mixed with M1 shows good results.

It's a balancing act. This Shell Oil Article I read mentioned how much testing is involved when adding additives and formulating oils. You can't just go and through 100's ppm of an additive in an oil and think it's going to work well. They make that point in this article.

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

.......slight scoring off center of one cam lobe

---

Terry doesn't specify exactly how the lifter failed, but I would guess, whatever happened to that lifter, it threw cam aligment out of wack......either vertically or horizontally....or both; thereby scoring the cam lobe.......while putting a lot of stress on the cam bearings.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Right buster because I am sure RL does no testing. They just thought it would be cool to have a bunch of moly.
Considering it is one of the most expensive organo-metallic adds, they could have a lot more profit if they didn't use as much.
Perhaps there is a reason

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Right buster because I am sure RL does no testing

---

Did I say that? No I didn't.

To each their own. I could care less what Redline uses or does, I just go by what I see. I'm sure RL's 500ppm of Moly has it's purpose and I'm sure Roy Howell, of Cornell, knows his stuff. Their are a lot of good oils out their.

Roy is a very nice guy. His theory on the Pb issue was in fact the Moly. He said it's nothing to be concerned about but it might be reacting with the bearings. That is what he told me. I give RL credit for even allowing him to speak to me. No other company I know lets you chat with the chemist. I was persistant though. Dave is nice too.

The whole issue of RL's Moly and POE basestocks was not invented by buster.

[ September 21, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:
Note that Redline oil company is now using lowered levels of Mo in their formulations.

---

Terry, when did Redline lower the Mo levels in their formulations? Was this across the board or only certain Vis/Street/Race types?

I wonder if this Mo issue is related to why certain Hondas have high levels of Cu/Pb for the first 30K miles and the high Mo content "break-in" oil they put in their engines?

[ September 21, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]

 

[Terry]

Looks like 5 of the eight brand new compR lifters failed internally from what I can gather, how the cam was scored is still under investigation. Pb/Sn is from the lifters themselves and cam bearings.

Note that Redline oil company is now using lowered levels of Mo in their formulations.

I guarantee that Roy Howell knows exactly what he is doing with the formulation. Hey he used to work for Lubrizol which sells much of the add packages we see in the oils here, including M1 !

TD

 

[Terry]

427Z06, I started seeing the lower levels in used oil analysis late last year. About a 50% drop across the board from what I see.

I suspect they are using a newer mo formulation that uses less but tests as well as the older chemistries.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

About a 50% drop across the board from what I see.

---

Terry are we talking about 250ppm now vs the older 500ppm or so?

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I would have to think it's from near 1000ppm to the now near 500ppm. I believe they told someone in the past that they used 900 something ppm of moly. Just didn't all show up on analysis, I think moly is hard to read, or messes up other elements if you calibrate Mo properly. Something like that.

By they way, maybe you did not say that in those exact words, but you could not have come any closer to doing so.

 

[crainholio]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry:
Looks like 5 of the eight brand new compR lifters failed internally from what I can gather, how the cam was scored is still under investigation. Pb/Sn is from the lifters themselves and cam bearings.

TD

---

Not surprising. I had one CompR lifter fail on my old L98 engine after a 1-day session at Pocono North road course. Found the little steel retainer/preloader plate from one CompR lifter broken in half and both pieces stuck to my oil plug magnet while changing the oil. The lifter stayed together fortunately and the engine showed no symptoms.

Comp replaced all 16 under warranty, but I had already reassembled the engine w/ the old factory lifters so they didn't get used.

I've seen the older CompR lifters, and they appear to have revised the design a tad since then.