6th generation ES, 7th generation ES, or MKZ?

[Enthusiast]

Okay I'm going to try this again. Last year I had a 6th generation ES 350 which I admittedly did a poor job on the purchase process. That car didn't have a bumper but had a bumper cover, it leaked, and it had mildew in the interior. Lesson learned.

I'm beginning to contemplate trying to replace my daily driver again. What I liked about my es was The styling and the reputation. The seats were okay. The headrest bothered my neck, the design of the back pushed the driver towards slouching. I had non the entry-level seats. I know the ultra luxury seats do not work because there is a prominent bar in the front section of the seat that will cause problems and I do not need a leg extender as I am short. This is probably a stupid question but can a interior person do anything to modify the seat underneath the leather to improve the comfort?

I have looked at a 7th generation es and found the seats at least (as long as a test drive can tell me) to be relatively comfortable. My concerns are I've been hearing some problems that Toyota is having with their 8-speed transmission. The car care nut has referenced this for earlier versions, but I'm hearing rumors on some of the Toyota or Lexus forums that the problem might not have been resolved. Any thoughts on the accuracy of this? I saw on 14um someone post dealer quote for north of $10,000 for a new transmission.

I also recently tested a Lincoln MKZ and found the seats to be one of the better seats out there for modern cars. I'm trying to make the choice on what powertrain would be the least troublesome and least expensive. My gut reaction is I don't trust the EcoBoost engines and I have concerns about the 6f35. As much as I loved the cyclone engine, I'm not ready to go back to an engine with a timing chain driven water pump. So, I'm thinking about getting the hybrid version. I know that brings a new set of maintenance items to consider, particularly the battery. Being that the newest example is going to be roughly 6 years old. What are your thoughts about this option?

 

[cptbarkey]

Ford has terrible reliability ratings.

I have the same transmission in my 2018 van, no issues. As is typical the internet blows things out of proportion, as does the car care nut with his droning. He used to have good info but I cant stand how he delivers information anymore.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

We had a 2013 2.0 Ecoboost escape and it was very reliable, sold it at 170k and it's still going with the new owner. That engine was a gem. Transmission had a weird surge to it at 35-45mph, but it never got worse. But I think 2017+ is a different design Ecoboost.

 

[Enthusiast]

I know that in recent history Ford has had a significant increase in problems. As stated there's a lot of engines I don't trust that they are making. The Lincoln MKZ hybrid from my understanding is one of the more reliable designs that they have out there. Unless I'm mistaken, it is using a Toyota hybrid system or a system based off of it, and naturally aspirated 2 L which is loosely based off of a Mazda design. The only problem that I know of that the MKZ would probably have outside of the battery would likely be the electric steering rack. As I know numerous people that have had fusions that have had to have their steering rack replaced. Granted those might be older examples since I know there were known issues about the early electric steering racks that ran until 2015 but I don't know if that was completely resolved or not.

We will have to agree to disagree, from what I'm seeing He seems to be honest And he seems to talk about problems I'm hearing other people talk about. Although I don't agree with all of his takes, I will take him any day of the week over Scotty kilmer who I can't stand and he has more credibility with me than the car wizard who more and more just seems to use videos to brand bash.

 

[Enthusiast]

We had a 2013 2.0 Ecoboost escape and it was very reliable, sold it at 170k and it's still going with the new owner. That engine was a gem. Transmission had a weird surge to it at 35-45mph, but it never got worse. But I think 2017+ is a different design Ecoboost.

I appreciate you sharing your experience and I'm happy that your vehicle was good. The Surge that you experienced, did it feel like somebody rear-ended you with a whiplash hit? I asked because my brother used to have a final generation Taurus with the 6f50 that did that a couple times. The transmission never failed but it would do that once in awhile from the time that he bought it with 60,000 mi to the time he got rid of it at 173,000 mi due to the water pump problem with the Cyclone engine.

 

[OX1]

We've had 14, 17, and now 23 Escapes with 2.0. 14 had 100K, traded it for 17
(sold 17 to buddy for his kid @ 96k, now has close to 140K), 23 has about 20K.

No engine or transmission issues. I do 5K oil changes religiously (Mobil 1 Extended Performance), drain/refill on transmission, every other oil
change after 40K and even change out PTU/RDU fluids @ 10K (if any of that matters).

What has gone on all of them (and my Fusion Sport too), was front axle seals.
All 3 escapes and my Fusion required at least one axle seal.

Also required rear diff due to very slight whine on 17 @ 80K (warrantee, as
I always get longest available).

 

[KCJeep]

The MKZ is a very nice car and one of the better-looking rides to come out of that era IMO. I had an older one and nearly bought a late run model a couple of times, but it didn't end up happening.

There are several very good EcoBoost engines but the one in the late years of the MKZ is not one of them, so good idea to avoid. The water pump issue on the V6 is real but is highly over inflated on the internet (again IMO) many go a long time without issue. I currently own one and know of 4 in the family and none have had a problem (yet).

The Ford hate on this site is over the top, we've owned a bunch and still do, ownership has been boringly uneventful, they are generally easy to live with in our experience. The Ford recall stigma is a real thing though.

 

[HoosierJeeper]

I appreciate you sharing your experience and I'm happy that your vehicle was good. The Surge that you experienced, did it feel like somebody rear-ended you with a whiplash hit? I asked because my brother used to have a final generation Taurus with the 6f50 that did that a couple times. The transmission never failed but it would do that once in awhile from the time that he bought it with 60,000 mi to the time he got rid of it at 173,000 mi due to the water pump problem with the Cyclone engine.

No, it was more of a flutter/surge, like the torque converter locking and unlocking, the RPMs would just bounce around by 300RPM, but none of the vibrations of a bad TC (never a CEL either). Only in that 40MPH range. Below that it was perfect and above it was perfect. Although what you describe happened one time, coming up a steep hill it felt like it didn't want to downshift so then it bogged down and then downshifted hard. But only did that once IIRC.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Toyota is better than Ford.

 

[Enthusiast]

We've had 14, 17, and now 23 Escapes with 2.0. 14 had 100K, traded it for 17
(sold 17 to buddy for his kid @ 96k, now has close to 140K), 23 has about 20K.

No engine or transmission issues. I do 5K oil changes religiously (Mobil 1 Extended Performance), drain/refill on transmission, every other oil
change after 40K and even change out PTU/RDU fluids @ 10K (if any of that matters).

What has gone on all of them (and my Fusion Sport too), was front axle seals.
All 3 escapes and my Fusion required at least one axle seal.

Also required rear diff due to very slight whine on 17 @ 80K (warrantee, as
I always get longest available).

How much did that cost to repair?

The MKZ is a very nice car and one of the better-looking rides to come out of that era IMO. I had an older one and nearly bought a late run model a couple of times, but it didn't end up happening.

There are several very good EcoBoost engines but the one in the late years of the MKZ is not one of them, so good idea to avoid. The water pump issue on the V6 is real but is highly over inflated on the internet (again IMO) many go a long time without issue. I currently own one and know of 4 in the family and none have had a problem (yet).

The Ford hate on this site is over the top, we've owned a bunch and still do, ownership has been boringly uneventful, they are generally easy to live with in our experience. The Ford recall stigma is a real thing though.

I understand that not every single person has one has that problem. Like I listed. My father's one lasted to 300,000, mi, but I've also heard of people having very premature failures. That problem was always on the back of my mind and it kept me up at night. So I don't want to take another chance. What is your opinion of the hybrid variant reliability?

The other way I've thought about it is possibly buying a fusion in having an MKZ seat swapped into it. It doesn't have to be a luxury label, it's the seat that I care about. I don't care about resale value so even if it doesn't have matching seats between the front seats is perfectly fine to me. By the time I'm done with cars, they're usually either done or ready for their last owner who don't particularly care what it looks like. What are your thoughts about doing that? Really all I care about is the comfort and that the car is reliable.

No, it was more of a flutter/surge, like the torque converter locking and unlocking, the RPMs would just bounce around by 300RPM, but none of the vibrations of a bad TC (never a CEL either). Only in that 40MPH range. Below that it was perfect and above it was perfect. Although what you describe happened one time, coming up a steep hill it felt like it didn't want to downshift so then it bogged down and then downshifted hard. But only did that once IIRC.

Okay what was your maintenance schedule and which fluid did you use?

 

[HoosierJeeper]

Okay what was your maintenance schedule and which fluid did you use?

it was my wife's college car, we got it when it had like 92k on it and ran it up to 165/170k. Didn't ever do a transmission fluid change, it did have a CV axle seal leak on the transaxle and I'd top that off with the factory ford stuff, but otherwise never touched it. That was the only non brakes/tires/oil change/battery repair on that one.

 

[OX1]

How much did that cost to repair?

Zero. I always buy the longest ext warantee offered.
IE, I just grabbed a 10 year, 60K, premium care zero deductible
on my 21 Shelby for $3300 (that car will never even see 30K in my lifetime I bet)

Sometimes I "win", sometimes I don't, like any other insurance policy.
(like in 33 years, I've never filed a homeowners claim, but still buy the insr).

 

[Nick1994]

If you’re focused on reliability, I’m not sure you can even put the ES and a Lincoln in the same sentence and try to compare them.

If you want a nice reliable car, get the Lexus.

If you want bells and whistles and creature comforts, get something else.

 

[Enthusiast]

Nick, I appreciate your time and willingness to try to help but I want detailed answers about both models. I understand that Ford makes plenty of models that are troublesome, especially in recent years, but I am not a person that buys into The argument that "Everything that Ford produces is absolutely trash and always has been And Toyota doesn't make duds". My brother's Avalon is having things break that his Taurus never needed to have repaired. This is also a situation that I have to be flexible with the brands because I have a back problem and I am trying to find something that is going to work to where I am not in constant pain. American cars are traditionally better at this. If a MKZ hybrid, which is the least content of Ford parts is reliable, I'm okay with that. Also understand you're speaking to a person that has bought Chrysler is over the last 25 years and I haven't been burned yet. I know how to take care of American cars. I just need to know the difference of what's going to be the most reliable or the least reliable out of the choices for the MKZ.

Have you had personal experience with the MKZ/ fusion with her positive or negative or is this just? You don't like Lincoln/ Ford regardless of what model and you have no experience with them? Do you have experience with the Toyota 8-speed transmission?

 

[cptbarkey]

Frankly it sounds like from the onset you did alot of research. The anecdotes here on a general oil forum is unlikely to sway you. Keep searching the individual brand forums. Its probably time to make a decision. Good luck.

 

[edyvw]

I would go ES, but reliability is not what people make out of it. My FIL had two transmission failures on 6 speed and car was strictly maintained in Lexus dealership.
8 speed had issues, but reliability is OK. It ain’t ZF8, but it is ok.
Seats are enigma that Toyota will never resolve. If seats are priority, look European cars.
I would take my BMW 328 on long trip without any thinking over my Sequoia precisely because of seats (well it is far better car to drive too). But with family, it is different. And regardless that seats are big etc. it is just mediocre comfort.

 

[wcd978]

The 2017–2019 Fusion and MKZ models equipped with the 2.0L EcoBoost engine and built on or before April 8, 2019 can suffer from coolant intrusion into the cylinders. The only real fix is a full engine replacement, which effectively totals the vehicle from a financial standpoint. Models built after April 2019 should be safe from this issue, as are MKZs equipped with the 3.0L twin-turbo engine and hybrid models.

Neither the 2.0T nor the 3.0TT uses a timing chain–driven water pump..... both use a conventional belt-driven setup.

The MKZ’s interior, especially in the Reserve trims, is pretty good. Some have adaptive cruise control, heated and AC front seats, heated rear seats, a heated steering wheel, and even massage seats on some models Ride quality is very smooth and quiet

The car is a turd in terms of speed with the 2.0T. 8-second 0–60 mph time for the 2.0T. But the turbo does give it a good bit of torque for a 4 cyl car passing power/off the line wise. But obviously it's a luxury cruiser not a race or rally car.

 

[FTTSHO]

6th gen ES350 hands down.

I’ve driven many MKZ’s and they just can’t compete with the ES in terms of reliability, ride quality, and overall build quality in general. Panel gaps, and material quality is night and day compared to a Lexus.

The 6th gen ES has really great ride quality, great insulation, actually luxurious interiors especially on luxury and ultra luxury trims with its nice real leathers, it’s pretty affordable now on the used market, and most importantly it has the tried and true 2GRFE with port injection, not the newer 2GRFKS with direct injection. I’m sure the FKS is great too reliability wise, but I just worry about the potential D4S fuel system maintenance and replacement costs, and also the 7ths gens suspension components seem like it would be very expensive to repair later if you want to stick with OEM components to keep the nice ride quality.


I recently went shopping for a nice luxury sedan, and I looked at 6th gen ES350’s, and 7th gen ES350’s. I had plenty of driving time on both of these models because I work at a dealership, and I got to drive both of these quite often.

Although I really wanted a 7th gen ES for its better ride quality and nicer exterior designs, I ended up buying a 6th gen, because of its relatively simpler drivetrain, and its interior which just looks and feels nicer to me especially the infotainment screen which is better integrated with the dash design. The 6th gen audio/radio panel has that nice silver color, which is a throw back to old school Japanese stereo receiver colors which is super cool.

Overall, the 6th gen ES is really one of the last understated luxury vehicle lexus made before going full on “experience amazing” with their 2020+ style designs which is kind of over the top in my opinion.