5w20 Synthetics - What Value?

[Ron AKA]

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I think where the 5w20's still have a leg up on the 5w30 and 10w30's is in low temperature performance - CCS & MRV. An average conventional 5w20 will be better than most 5w30 synthetics.

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I don't think that's an accurate statement at all (if you're talking about PAO based synthetics).

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I did say the average synthetic, as there is not much PAO sold other than for M1, and M1 does not publish their CCS or MRV specs. I'm not that familiar with Amsoil and what is in it, but if we compare 5w20 conventionals that I posted above to the Amsoil ASL 5w30 (5254), all of the conventionals have a better CCS. Castrol does not count as they don't post typical values. If we make the same comparision to Amsoil XL (4341), Petrocan still beats it and Valvoline is close. Amsoil publishes very limited specs so can't compare the MRV's.

My only point is that the startup or cool weather performance of 5w20's are underestimated, and a 5w20 conventional is a very low cost way to get that performance, compared to the guys spending big $$'s on synthetic 5w30 - especially the PAO's.

 

[G-MAN]

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My only point is that the startup or cool weather performance of 5w20's are underestimated, and a 5w20 conventional is a very low cost way to get that performance, compared to the guys spending big $$'s on synthetic 5w30 - especially the PAO's.

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I can agree with that.

 

[Ron AKA]

I've updated the initial charts to include the Havoline products in both, the Mobil 5000 conventional, and the Amsoil synthetic. I would suggest the Havoline products are average, the Mobil 5000 below average, and the Amsoil slightly above average. None are threats to being the best in their respective groups. PetroCan conventional still remains the best including both groups. Valvoline Synpower still the best for synthetics only.

 

[flatlandtacoma]

Ron,
Why don't you use these numbers for the Motorcraft 5w20, direct from the manufacturer's website:

API Service SM
ILSAC GF-4
Flash Point 224°C
Pour Point -31°C
Viscosity
48.8 cSt @ 40°C
8.6 cSt @ 100°C
Viscosity Index 164
Cold Cranking Viscosity, 3700 cP @ -30°C
High-Temp/High-Shear Viscosity 2.6 cP @ 150°C

http://www.conocolubricants.com/NR/rdonl...SynBlend_MO.pdf

http://tds.econocophillips.com/catalogs/phillips66_product_catalog/automotive/66_TA_Syn_MO.pdf

 

[TooSlick]

RON,

There are several problems with these "spec sheet" comparisons you like to do....

1) They focus on the cheaper Group III based products and not the top tier, PAO/Ester synlubes. Even the xw-30, Mobil synthetics have largely become commodity products, due to the influx of Group III oils and the need to compete on price rather than performance. Mobils' $9.00/qt Motorcycle oils - and $30.00/gallon "Delvac 1" - are their only world class engine oils IMNSHO. (I thought the Mobil 1, 0w-30 Racing Oil was also an excellent product, but they couldn't mass market it @ $7.00/qt)

2) There is a wide range of Group III performance...the cheaper stuff from the far east is little better than Chevrons' Group II+, 119 VI basestock. The best (and more expensive) Group III stocks rival the performance of second tier, 1-decene PAO. Of course there are even better, advanced PAO's available (Mobils' Spectrasyn Plus & Ultra, Chevrons 5/7/9 Cst "do-Decene", etc)), but you won't find them used in cost formulated synthetics.

3) Comparing FP's is very misleading, since they are highly dependent on the particular additive chemistry used. It would make more sense to compare the Flash Points of "neat" PAO, Ester and petroleum (including GP III) basestocks. This gives you a much better idea of thermal stability and the propensity of the lube to form high temp varnish/carbon deposits inside the engine.

4) Baseline properties tell you almost nothing about how well the oil holds up in service, which is far more critical than a VOA.

I would generally agree that the idea of synthetics and short OCI's doesn't make sense unless you live in Alaska or have a turbo.

TS

 

[buster]

Tooslick hit the nail on the head. Ron, you also fail to look at the "in service" data provided by used oil analysis. I would expect as an engineer, this would be useful in your own analysis. What works in a Lab for a spec sheet doesn't equate to real world performance. You should know this. Whether one oil flows down to -50F vs -37F is not an issue for 99% of us. The spec sheet data is somewhat useful, but not entirely indicative how well and oil will hold up (TBN/Viscosity etc.) in an actual engine.

 

[Ron AKA]

Sorry I wasn't aware those were the same as Motorcraft. I got my numbers from the Motorcraft site, which is obviously dated.

 

[Ron AKA]

I hear what you are saying, but when the 5w20 conventionals are so good, it seems pointless to chase the high end synthetic ones, unless you want to play the XOCI and UOA game.

 

[Ron AKA]

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Tooslick hit the nail on the head. Ron, you also fail to look at the "in service" data provided by used oil analysis. I would expect as an engineer, this would be useful in your own analysis. What works in a Lab for a spec sheet doesn't equate to real world performance. You should know this. Whether one oil flows down to -50F vs -37F is not an issue for 99% of us. The spec sheet data is somewhat useful, but not entirely indicative how well and oil will hold up (TBN/Viscosity etc.) in an actual engine.

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I would suggest that is only important to those pushing the OCI's. Seems to me there is a much simpler solution. Use low cost but high performing group II oils (save $$), change the oil more often (on average cleaner oil & cleaner engine), forget the UOA (save $50 a pop), and treat your engine to more clean oil filters.

If you change your conventional oil at 3,000 miles you don't have to worry about any of this degredation in service stuff. Essentially what you pour in is what you drain out, and at lower cost.

 

[TooSlick]

Ron,

Do you work for free during the week???

I consider my labor to do an oil change and clean up the mess afterwards to worth about $25.00. Back when I had some time on my hands I was flushing (Amsoil engine flush & new oil filter) and converting engines to Amsoil for a bunch of co-workers and that's what I was charging in labor. They were all too happy to have someone service their car who actually cared what they were doing.

TS

 

[Ron AKA]

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Ron, Do you work for free during the week???

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Well today is Thanksgiving in Canada, so that is an exception. I wouldn't pay anyone to change the oil the nominal amount I get paid. But, on the other hand I am on salary which means I can work as much overtime as I like - but pay stays the same. So changing my own oil is essentially free!

 

[Ron AKA]

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Ron,
Why don't you use these numbers for the Motorcraft 5w20, direct from the manufacturer's website:

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I won't bother posting another chart, but I did update my personal spreadsheet with the Conoco numbers. This oil is much better and I would suggest merits #2 ranking overall for the 5w20's. I've never seen it for sale in Canada however, but it may be available from Ford at Stealership prices. Perhaps a very good deal in the US though through Conoco or at retail stores.

This does go to show how much oils have improved in the past 4 years.

 

[Rand]

Its available at every walmart autozone or advanced auto parts in north east ohio. Also in 5qt jugs at walmart for 9.97