Hey. I thought GF4 claimed to improve less wear on valvetrains. The oil manufacturer spend so much money to meet/exceed the specs of API SM/GF4, am currently using schaffer's 5W20 oil and I'm not concerned because it meets the current specs.
5-20 recommendatins kills love affair!
- Thread starter GregH
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Where's the :troll: emoticon when you need it...
boxcartommie22 is hardly a troll. Raisng concerns about cam / lifter wear with thin oils seems like a fair question.
Engine with bearing and valve train designs that are based on the GF-4 5W-20 oil spec should do well.
I could easily believe that there are limits to the best GF-4 oils, especially 5W-20 oils.
Modified engines, older engines, engines driven WOT , towing , or in high temps, ......and especially engines with higher pressures such as might be found with stiffer valve springs and higher lift cams might need thicker oil and more EP /AW / FM additives.
Engine with bearing and valve train designs that are based on the GF-4 5W-20 oil spec should do well.
I could easily believe that there are limits to the best GF-4 oils, especially 5W-20 oils.
Modified engines, older engines, engines driven WOT , towing , or in high temps, ......and especially engines with higher pressures such as might be found with stiffer valve springs and higher lift cams might need thicker oil and more EP /AW / FM additives.
I'm using Mobil 1 0W-20 in our 2004 Honda Element 2.4 liter VTEC motor.
I felt much better than the factory fill 5W-20.
I was skeptical of xW-20 oil, but I've used it for 2 years and 50K on the Honda, and the engine runs great!
I still have nagging doubts as to whether 0W-20 or 5W-20 is best for long term ownership and lowest operational costs.
If I look globally at either the 2.4 Liter VTEC engine, or the Honda CR-V which shares the same chassis and driveline as the Element there is a wide range of oils that probably reflect the speeds and temperatures and oil change intervals as well as oils available in the local market.
I noticed that in Germany that the interval is 12,400 miles, and that a 10Ws-60 is listed for 'sufficient security' in the CR-V.
I'd have to conclude that synthetic 0W-30, 0W-40, 5w30, and 10W-40 are all acceptable 'out of warranty' choices for this engine.
I think I'll stick with the Mobil 1 0W-20, but if this vehicle moves to Arizona, or I go on a long trip with near maximum capacity... I'll switch Redline 5W-20 or GC 0W-30.
In Germany Toyota Camry 2002- 2.4 L or 3.0L V6 spec:
optimaler Schutz und Leistung
Castrol GTX9 Magnatec 5w30 4.2l
So a 0w30 GC seems quite acceptable. Probably a safer choice after warranty, and a top quality 5W-20 synthetic should be fine during warranty.
=======================
Your selection
Category : Automotive
Sub-category : Car, Van, SUV, Truck
Manufacturer : HONDA
Model : ELEMENT
Year : 2004
Engine : 4 Cyl-2.4L
Climate : All Temps
Change Selection
Your Recommendations
Engine Oil
Castrol GTX
API* 5W-20 - Maximum Protection Against Viscosity and Thermal Breakdown
Castrol SYNTEC
API* 5W-20 - Outperforms ALL Leading Motor Oils
Castrol SYNTEC BLEND
API* 5W-20 - Added Protection for Frequent Short Trips
[ July 04, 2006, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Thatwouldbegreat ]
I felt much better than the factory fill 5W-20.
I was skeptical of xW-20 oil, but I've used it for 2 years and 50K on the Honda, and the engine runs great!
I still have nagging doubts as to whether 0W-20 or 5W-20 is best for long term ownership and lowest operational costs.
If I look globally at either the 2.4 Liter VTEC engine, or the Honda CR-V which shares the same chassis and driveline as the Element there is a wide range of oils that probably reflect the speeds and temperatures and oil change intervals as well as oils available in the local market.
I noticed that in Germany that the interval is 12,400 miles, and that a 10Ws-60 is listed for 'sufficient security' in the CR-V.
I'd have to conclude that synthetic 0W-30, 0W-40, 5w30, and 10W-40 are all acceptable 'out of warranty' choices for this engine.
I think I'll stick with the Mobil 1 0W-20, but if this vehicle moves to Arizona, or I go on a long trip with near maximum capacity... I'll switch Redline 5W-20 or GC 0W-30.
In Germany Toyota Camry 2002- 2.4 L or 3.0L V6 spec:
optimaler Schutz und Leistung
Castrol GTX9 Magnatec 5w30 4.2l
So a 0w30 GC seems quite acceptable. Probably a safer choice after warranty, and a top quality 5W-20 synthetic should be fine during warranty.
=======================
Your selection
Category : Automotive
Sub-category : Car, Van, SUV, Truck
Manufacturer : HONDA
Model : ELEMENT
Year : 2004
Engine : 4 Cyl-2.4L
Climate : All Temps
Change Selection
Your Recommendations
Engine Oil
Castrol GTX
API* 5W-20 - Maximum Protection Against Viscosity and Thermal Breakdown
Castrol SYNTEC
API* 5W-20 - Outperforms ALL Leading Motor Oils
Castrol SYNTEC BLEND
API* 5W-20 - Added Protection for Frequent Short Trips
[ July 04, 2006, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Thatwouldbegreat ]
-----------------------
In the United Kingdom Castrol specs:
EDGE 0W-30, and GTX MAGNATEC 10W-40 for the Accord 2.0, 2.4 DOHC i-VTEC Year 2003-
The 2.4 liter VTEC is probably similar to the Element's motor.
------------
An Accord 2003 and up 2.4 Liter 16 valve In Germany:
optimaler Schutz und Leistung
Castrol DCO Topup 0w30 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
gute Performance
Castrol Formula RS 0W-40 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
ausreichende Sicherheit
Castrol GTX9 Magnatec 5w30 4,
---
In Germany the 2.0 liter Honda CR-V which has the same chassis as the Element:
Motor K20A4
optimaler Schutz und Leistung [optimal protection and achievement]
Castrol DCO Topup 0w30 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
gute Performance [good performance ]
Castrol Formula RS 0W-40 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
ausreichende Sicherheit [ sufficient security ]
Castrol Formula RS 10W-60 4,2
-----------
In New Zealand:
HONDA
Accord Euro, 2.4 Litre VTEC Eng. (2003-2006)
CASTROL MAGNATEC 5w30 or CASTROL MAGNATEC 10W-40
Service Refill Capacity: 4.2* Litres
------------------
For a Honda CR-V 2.4 L , in Australia:
CASTROL MAGNATEC
Protection from the moment you turn the key SAE 10W-40, API SL/CF ACEA A3/B3 * Recommended for petrol or diesel cars, 4WDs and light commercials. CASTROL EDGE SPORT 5w30
Castrol Edge Sport 5w30 is a full synthetic SAE 5w30, API SM/CF. ACEA A3/B3/B4 engine oil formulated for highly tuned fast fours and latest technology engines. It provides superb strength and ultimate protection even when running hard, fast or hot.
In the United Kingdom Castrol specs:
EDGE 0W-30, and GTX MAGNATEC 10W-40 for the Accord 2.0, 2.4 DOHC i-VTEC Year 2003-
The 2.4 liter VTEC is probably similar to the Element's motor.
------------
An Accord 2003 and up 2.4 Liter 16 valve In Germany:
optimaler Schutz und Leistung
Castrol DCO Topup 0w30 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
gute Performance
Castrol Formula RS 0W-40 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
ausreichende Sicherheit
Castrol GTX9 Magnatec 5w30 4,
---
In Germany the 2.0 liter Honda CR-V which has the same chassis as the Element:
Motor K20A4
optimaler Schutz und Leistung [optimal protection and achievement]
Castrol DCO Topup 0w30 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
gute Performance [good performance ]
Castrol Formula RS 0W-40 4,2 Wechseln 20000 km / 12 Monate
ausreichende Sicherheit [ sufficient security ]
Castrol Formula RS 10W-60 4,2
-----------
In New Zealand:
HONDA
Accord Euro, 2.4 Litre VTEC Eng. (2003-2006)
CASTROL MAGNATEC 5w30 or CASTROL MAGNATEC 10W-40
Service Refill Capacity: 4.2* Litres
------------------
For a Honda CR-V 2.4 L , in Australia:
CASTROL MAGNATEC
Protection from the moment you turn the key SAE 10W-40, API SL/CF ACEA A3/B3 * Recommended for petrol or diesel cars, 4WDs and light commercials. CASTROL EDGE SPORT 5w30
Castrol Edge Sport 5w30 is a full synthetic SAE 5w30, API SM/CF. ACEA A3/B3/B4 engine oil formulated for highly tuned fast fours and latest technology engines. It provides superb strength and ultimate protection even when running hard, fast or hot.
Theres a difference between questioning where a 20 weight GF-4 oil should be used and claiming they're "showing an alarming rate of cam/lifter wear!!!"
They aren't or we'd see it in the used oil analysis section. In some applications they probably aren't a good choice. But that doesn't mean they're *never* a good choice. In some applications 50 weights aren't a good choice either...
They aren't or we'd see it in the used oil analysis section. In some applications they probably aren't a good choice. But that doesn't mean they're *never* a good choice. In some applications 50 weights aren't a good choice either...
I'm joining the anti XXw20 crowd. The only reason that it is recommended here in the US is due to CAFE standards. In other countries manufacturers recommend heavier weights in the very same engines. I believe that manufactuers are gaining fuel milage but sacrificing engine life by doing this. The funny thing here is that by sacrificing engine life the manufactuer has actualy not saved any resources due to increased car production. This however is benificial to the manufactuers bottom line. Other manufactuers that don't have to worry about CAFE due to the lack of gas guzzlers among their lineup such as VW continue to spec the oil that promotes the longest life vs better economy. Food for thought guys...
I'm not anti xW-20, I use it. But I do wonder if xW-20 is best. I've read the many arguments aand the used oil analysis, but I've not seen any longterm high mileage info.
I also haven't seen any data on how much fuel savings versus shortened engine life there is...but I would guess around $1500 in fuel savings over 200K would be near the limit at current prices.
I run Mobil 1 0W-20 in our 2004 Honda Element at 7K intervals. I see zero oil consumption, and the engine runs great, and the oil looks great over 7K.
I do add some LC20 and some VSOT, so that may keep the oil in better shape and add some EP/ AW adds to the oil or thicken it up slightly.
But I still wonder if I should be running Redline 5W-20 or GC 0w30 for better protection, if I'm shooting for 300K on the engine.
It's been beat to death. Just remember, when you dump that conventional 5w30 oil in your engine, in about 1000-2000 miles it's a 20 weight too...
So according to your logic a 5w20 is a 10 weight in about 1000-2000 miles. That's even scarier. For the record I use Syntec 5w40 or GC in my VW and will be using Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 in my wife's neon. Why isn't XXw20 used in other countries??? Europe uses heavier weights in a colder climate... I believe that the European car manufacturers have engine oil figured out.
No, that's not what I said. Look at the used oil analysis section and see how 5w30 conventional oils shear. Most of them are 20 weights in no time at all. So how much difference is there really?
The 20 weights seem to hold their viscosity better, my guess is because they generally use better base fluids and less or no VI's. But that's just a guess.
As far as how they do it in europe, it really isn't a factor to me. European vehicles don't seem to have any better reliability than the ones made in Japan or the US no matter what kind of oil they use...
Honda does the 20W because they can maintain the 'highest CAFE of any manufacturer' marketing tag which has enormous value. They don't recommend 20W exclusively in any other country.
Subaru doesn't have any guzzlers, and they recommend region/seasonal viscosities, not 20 weights.
Who else other than Honda doesn't have guzzlers and recommends 20's?
One last thought on this. I am back on the thick oil side of the fence today. That could change tomorrow.
BUT if the thin oils are not good in the wear department, should we not see that in used oil analysis. Predicting early failure is their purpose. We don't seem to be seeing heavy wear trends with the 20 weight oils or am I missing something?
GregH
BUT if the thin oils are not good in the wear department, should we not see that in used oil analysis. Predicting early failure is their purpose. We don't seem to be seeing heavy wear trends with the 20 weight oils or am I missing something?
GregH
How the heck could a dealership accurately determine what weight was in there to start with from a used oil analysis? We all know some oils thicken and some shear down after even small amounts of driving, so I can't see how they'd be able to determine the inital viscosity grade. There is no way to prove that for whatever reason, the oil didn't thicken up to a whole other grade. Now obviously there is a limit to that- if the oil analysis shows 60wt and your car specs 20wt, they might be able to make an argument, but most cases aren't anywhere near that extreme. The only real way the dealership could honor or deny warranty based on oil used is to demand receipts for oil used. I have never, ever known anyone actually have to produce recepits for oil changes. The only time I could imagine it happening is in cases where there is an obvious oil related failure (like extreme sludging) caused by lack of maintenance. Even then, I'd guess most dealerships would be happy just to see proof the oil was changed, and really could care less about the grade of the oil. If you are really worried about it, just go to the store and buy a bunch of cases of some 5W-20 (enough to account for a lot of changes at your recommended interval), make a copy of the recepit to keep with your car's records, and then return it and buy your GC. People really make way too much of the warranty aspect of oil reccomendations.
BINGO! There's enough used oil analysis with low to normal wear in vehicles that spec Xw20s to all but put this debate to bed. Now if we could only get Castrol to make a 0w20 version GC!!
This is a great idea, but isn't it just a little dishonest?
how about using a recipe of oil with half xw-30 and xw-20?
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