4l80e intermediate clutch breakdown

Vger

Vger

Joined
Jun 25, 2022
Messages
53
Location
Lexington SC
While I am waiting on parts for the 95 4l60e, I have a nagging question concerning the 4l80e intermediate stack up. It seems fine to play with a 1995 4l80e INTER. stack and get your clearance to say .030 or .060 from my recent reading including articles from my pal Clinebarger. Why is it a sin to tighten up my 1999 and later stock units? ?--The manual gives the clearance at .030 all the way to .106 ?? These little things task me.Why YES to the .080 frictions on 95 and below? Does the clearance change?--Yes the cushion steel on the later units but the heat factor on the steels and .080 baffle me on stock units. Jake, Iroc and others say NEVER use kolene in an intermediate stack--I am having a seizure here--Professor Clinebarger please come forward .
 
I set Intermediate Clutch to .010" clearance per friction on all 4L80E/TH400 no matter the year, 3 frictions get .030" & 4 frictions get .040" or as close as I can get.

I don't use Kolene/Nitrated steels on 4L80E's or TH400 units, It's a waste of money, Though I don't see why you can't use them. The only unit I use Kolene steels on is the 3-4 clutch in 700R4/4L60E units.

For a '95 unit.....I would use a later ('96 & up) 4L80E Intermediate Piston & Spring Steel Wave Plate, 4 .070" Borg Warner Hi Energy Frictions, 3 .076" Steels & One .100" TH400 Steel against the Wave. You may need a Chrysler A727 .106" thick Forward/Direct Snap Ring to help tighten the clearance. Good idea to upgrade the Snap Ring anyway.
You can also counter bore the early 4L80E/TH400 Intermediate Piston to accept the Late Wave....Further tightening the clearance.

The .070" Hi Energy Frictions are FAR more durable than the .080" Cellulose Frictions, If you insist on .080" Frictions.....Run Raybestos GPZ Hi Energy Frictions.

Early 4L80E's use a really small Intermediate Feed Orifice because the lack of a Wave Plate, Using a Late Wave.....Drill to .093" for stock stall applications.
 
You Rock sir--I have in stock 3-Alto red eagle .080 Inter. frictions--What are your thoughts on these? I also have 4 -.076 kolene steels. I will order a .100 plate today.
 
Vger said:
You Rock sir--I have in stock 3-Alto red eagle .080 Inter. frictions--What are your thoughts on these? I also have 4 -.076 kolene steels. I will order a .100 plate today.
Click to expand...

I'm not a big fan of Red Eagle frictions, While they're better than the early Tan/Cellulose Frictions....Stock Borg Warner Hi Energy "Greens" are superior.

3 Intermediate Frictions will handle power just fine & I've seen so many TH400's that lived long lives with Red Eagles & Kolene Steels that I'm not concerned.

On a 2000....Your pretty much stuck with the flat .275" Backing/Pressure Plate as the early Stepped .368" 4L80E/TH400 Plate doesn't fit '99 & up Cases.

This was because the wider Intermediate Brake Band, The Case Lugs & Intermediate Clutch Snap Ring was lowered but the case profile was kept the same requiring a Backing Plate with slightly smaller dimensions.
 
Thank you--One last clearance question which I have never read. Since this stack has a wave plate the clearance varies on just how tight your feeler gauge fits--Wave compressed or wave relaxed --What say you Professor?--Many Thanks
 
I read Clinebarger like others read newspapers and found this from him in 2018:

The Alto Reds do not work in the 4L60E 3-4 clutch at all, They fail very quickly! The factory High-Energy Borg Warner fictions proved to work best in this particular application. I've used the Raybestos GPZ line as well with good results......They have a little more ferrous metal in them than the BW's & beats up on the steels more than I would like. Any clutch holding power you gained was mostly a result of additional friction plates, Red Eagle friction material is obsolete & ONLY a upgrade to Cellulose based friction materials......High-Energy Carbon friction's perform better!

Makes me believe Clinebarger gave up on me when I mentioned I had 3 of these in stock.Additional frictions ?
Of course i am talking 4l80e intermediate but still

Do you hate red eagles clinebarger? I have green .071 Borgs also.

Again, I talk longevity not racing--thanks
 
Hate isn't the word I would use, There are just better choices especially when you figure in what Red Eagles cost.....Though I realize you already have them. I did state I've seen them work well in TH400's & in the case of the Intermediate Clutch....The TH400 & 4L80E are pretty much identical in their dynamics.

I would install 4 Borg Greens if I were building it.
 
4l80e-I probably will .I want to see the stack up and clearances verses this and that . I am confused by GM with such an absurdly high clearance range on the intermediate, I mean, .030 to .106 Thats a gap not a clearance.

THE 95 4l60e --POST ORIGINAL TOPIC
I have 98% of the 4l60e parts delivered that you have advised me on and the few remainders are the 24227711 accumulator and various smalls.Weird idea hit me concerning one of the most overlooked/ignored part --The case ball capsule 8634400, Why has no one redesigned that with a coated seat and a torlon or other type ball ? Or just redesigned period?

Thank you sir
 
Last edited:
A lot of builders still omit the 3rd Accumulator ball capsule & block it with a parking pawl plug, I hate when they do that as it's hell to get that plug out.

Earlier in my career....I replaced the ball capsule 100%, But leak testing them revealed replacing it was not needed very often.
I take a flat nosed punch & tap the check ball a couple times using a 16oz ball peen, This will reform the seat if any seat wear exist.

Though I still leak check before reforming the seat......If it leaks badly, Change it! If it leaks slightly....Reform the seat. And of course leak check it afterward.

You'd be surprised how many don't leak at all! I've seen more 3-4 ball capsules in the Input Drum leak than I have the 3rd Accumulator ball capsule in the case leak.
 
Which begs the question-What causes the ball seat to fail, mileage or a flare up pressure problem ?
 
No need to improve that design,Just whack it with the hammer--Point made Chris. You see no profit or reason for improvement to the capsule? Lets say an aluminum cast capsule -theaded on 1 end with an internal composite ball ?--Bad idea?
 
It would take a lot of testing to prove anything else reliable, Composite/Plastic check balls wear.....It's a known issue with GM 5 & 6 speeds.

We have conundrum of.....Is minor leakage at the capsule a problem?.....There are 2 lube orifices in the circuit that are technically leaks.....One to lube the Band & the other to lube the Stator torrington.
 
This post started as a 4l80e clearance question--Sorry I got off track .I have both units going on so please excuse me to everyone. Let me stay on track with a 4l80e clearance question for you Clinebarger, Yes I know clearance bores you but I always throw a curve ball question.

I saw Hiram on a Youtube video named --4l80e endplay-- He used a sonnax .094 washer on the back forward drum then a .078 sonnax washer on the front side.Still had to add a .015 to get within specs. on the FRONT end play only. When you have time can you watch it and break down where you believe the wear occurred, Or perhaps it didn't--Mixed used parts? --How that much slop can even exist in his unit without obvious wear patterns?
 
Last edited:
clinebarger said:
I set Intermediate Clutch to .010" clearance per friction on all 4L80E/TH400 no matter the year, 3 frictions get .030" & 4 frictions get .040" or as close as I can get.

I don't use Kolene/Nitrated steels on 4L80E's or TH400 units, It's a waste of money, Though I don't see why you can't use them. The only unit I use Kolene steels on is the 3-4 clutch in 700R4/4L60E units.

For a '95 unit.....I would use a later ('96 & up) 4L80E Intermediate Piston & Spring Steel Wave Plate, 4 .070" Borg Warner Hi Energy Frictions, 3 .076" Steels & One .100" TH400 Steel against the Wave. You may need a Chrysler A727 .106" thick Forward/Direct Snap Ring to help tighten the clearance. Good idea to upgrade the Snap Ring anyway.
You can also counter bore the early 4L80E/TH400 Intermediate Piston to accept the Late Wave....Further tightening the clearance.

The .070" Hi Energy Frictions are FAR more durable than the .080" Cellulose Frictions, If you insist on .080" Frictions.....Run Raybestos GPZ Hi Energy Frictions.

Early 4L80E's use a really small Intermediate Feed Orifice because the lack of a Wave Plate, Using a Late Wave.....Drill to .093" for stock stall applications.
Click to expand...

In the 1200 rwhp capable 4L80E 2005 based core that you helped me build I'm running the following:

-36 sprag aluminum direct drum with no front band so no engine braking in 2nd. I have a case saver where the band was.

-The drum uses ford c6 style intermediate frictions that fit around the race but comes with 5 frictions and 5 steels that are only 0.063" thick. Not good for heat, and as we know, 5 int frictions is overkill. I went instead with 4 smooth raybestos c6 frictions and standard 4l80e steels that are thicker.

I used an TH400 thick 0.060 wave plate and an intermediate piston from a 91-96 4L80E as a late 97+ piston cannot work with the .060" wave due to height differences. My intermediate clearance is set at 0.035" dry. I run a Coan billet intermediate pressure plate and a 727 snap ring (A22878C) that is 0.106" thick.

-wave plate 1x .066" 34125
-intermediate steel 1x .100" 34124 (enlarged ID by .080 so that it fits around the race of the 36 drum)
-intermediate steel 3x .076" 34124E (enlarged ID by .080 so that it fits around the race of the 36 drum)
-4x .078 smooth frictions 36106S1
-COAN 0.28" plate 102818

I'm running a jakes D3 transbrake, and the shift orifices in the plate are not drilled any larger than they already were as supplied. 3rd comes pre drilled to 0.118" and 2nd @ 0.140", a stock plate is .059" for 2nd and 3rd.

I used the stronger TH400 intermediate spring retainer, and 12 TH400 springs in the intermediate piston.

I run a 3600 stall and the car shifts smooth, without jaw shattering shifts.

We'll see how the intermediate stack holds up over time!
 
clinebarger said:
I set Intermediate Clutch to .010" clearance per friction on all 4L80E/TH400 no matter the year, 3 frictions get .030" & 4 frictions get .040" or as close as I can get.

I don't use Kolene/Nitrated steels on 4L80E's or TH400 units, It's a waste of money, Though I don't see why you can't use them. The only unit I use Kolene steels on is the 3-4 clutch in 700R4/4L60E units.

For a '95 unit.....I would use a later ('96 & up) 4L80E Intermediate Piston & Spring Steel Wave Plate, 4 .070" Borg Warner Hi Energy Frictions, 3 .076" Steels & One .100" TH400 Steel against the Wave. You may need a Chrysler A727 .106" thick Forward/Direct Snap Ring to help tighten the clearance. Good idea to upgrade the Snap Ring anyway.
You can also counter bore the early 4L80E/TH400 Intermediate Piston to accept the Late Wave....Further tightening the clearance.

The .070" Hi Energy Frictions are FAR more durable than the .080" Cellulose Frictions, If you insist on .080" Frictions.....Run Raybestos GPZ Hi Energy Frictions.

Early 4L80E's use a really small Intermediate Feed Orifice because the lack of a Wave Plate, Using a Late Wave.....Drill to .093" for stock stall applications.
Click to expand...
Have been building up my motor home 4l80 ( 1995 unit) I got from an RV salvage yard and found no cushion plate in the intermediate. I cannibalized a wave plate from the old 475 and used a .100 and .097 - ish steels to get .043 on the stack and found this post.
The intermediate feed orifice - it this the small bleed hole on the back side of the center section that gets drilled out to .093" ?
 
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