3000 mile oci w/ synthetics

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheFuror:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gilitar:
I was just wondering if there is any advantage to using synthetic when doing 3000 mile OCI.

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I realize that I am in the decidely distinct minority on this issue here, but I use synthetic and change every 3K miles.

IMHO, regardless of the robustness of the additive package or quality of the base stock, there is no solution like dilution.

I believe that one of the primary benefits to changing frequently is to eliminate the particulate matter which, regardless of the life of your oil, is busy grinding away the inside of your engine.

Bob W.

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LOL, can you say "bypass filter"?

 

[CMT]

I'm a big fan of 3k oil changes, synthetic or not. Changing oil more frequently is always better- it's just a matter of diminishing returns as stated above. With synthetics, yeah, your best bet as far as economics (cost of oil vs cost of maintenance & vehicle life) is probably to go 7k or better OCIs. But economy is not my primary concern- overkill and giving the absolute best care to my engine possible is, and that means synthetics (or in my case, Schaeffer's semi-syn) and short OCIs. What will all this gain me in the end? Nothing, probably. I'll just be sending a truck with a worn out body and suspension to the junkyard with a pristine 500k engine. But even the thought of that gives me a certain satisfaction, and that's enough for me. I like maintaining my truck. I like changing oil. It's fun, and it makes me feel good. What is so wrong with that? If you think it's a waste of money, fine- no one is saying you have to do it that way. But some of you take this WAY too seriously- it's like 3k OCIs make you not only stupid, but a bad person. Lighten up. Some of us (probably more than you know) like to spend the money for premium oil and short OCIs. Sure cheap dino and 3k changes will get most people to 200k+, as will synthetic and 7k+ changes. But premium oil and 3k changes is better than both of the above, if only by a small amount. Like the song says, "you do your thing, I'll do mine....."

 

[John_E]

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
... The Ford manual states 3k miles oil changes for severe duty.

Recently, Volkswagen sent a letter to owners of 1998-through-2004 Passats equipped with the 1.8-liter four-cylinder turbocharged engine informing them that it was extending the warranty on the engine to cover problems caused by oil sludge. ... The number of engines affected is small in each case, but in this computer-controlled age, oil sludge sounds like a Neanderthal problem.

... But its manuals also specified 3750-mile changes for cars in "severe" service. "Severe" service applies to vehicles used on short trips, ... stop-and-go driving in heavy traffic, especially in hot climates, which elevates oil temperature. These are exactly the conditions that promote sludge formation. ...

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I concur. I run Mobil 1 0W-40 in my VW 1.8T and Pennzoil Conventional 5w30 in my 4-cylinder Dodge Stratus, both on 3000-3500 mile / 5000-6000 km OCIs, because we do alot of "severe service" city driving. Since I keep my cars well past their 7 or 10 year powertrain warranties, I refuse to play the "my driving is not severe service" game. I spend the better part of a penny per mile for oil (4.5 qts. @ $4 on sale) and filters ($8) on the Passat, which is alot cheaper than a new $8K Hungarian engine. (VW is one car company which has really departed from its simple, reliable, economical transportation roots!)

By the way, the Dodge owner's manual specifies a 6K mile / 10K km OCI for "normal" (really, ideal) driving and a 3K mile / 5K km OCI for "severe" (70 percent of cars, by their estimates). The VW manual specifies a 5K mi / 8K km OCI, with a note that cars driven under severe conditions will require "more frequent" air filter and oil changes.

 

[Mamala Bay]

What happens with all that used oil in the enviroment. It's called Hazard Waste. Think of 750 million gallons of used oil and not to mention the oil that is being disposed illegally.

The Federal Agency collects the used oil from the quickly lubes and recycle the oil and has it formulated to be used in the DOD to prevent further Hazard waste. It's becoming an alarming rate which many average drivers are not aware of.

Synthetic oil entended OCI is the answer and I hope many can become aware of it's positive performance compared to conventional oil and it's enviromental effects.

 

[mikemc]

Synthetic oil changed at 3K = wasted money.

 

[TheFuror]

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Bob,

I see you're an Attorney ....

Does the phrase: "Law Of Diminishing Returns" mean anything to you?

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Well, since lawyers have so badly screwed up the way laws are written, you would think I would understand this one...

Your point is well taken. I have considered going to longer OCI's (5K mile changes), but with the heat and amount of around town driving I do, I probably will end up staying with 3K OCI's.

Bob W.

Furor: n. A general commotion; public disorder or uproar. [Middle English furour, wrath, fury, from Old French fureur, from Latin furor, from furere, to rage.]

 

[CMT]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mamala Bay:
What happens with all that used oil in the enviroment. It's called Hazard Waste. Think of 750 million gallons of used oil and not to mention the oil that is being disposed illegally.

The Federal Agency collects the used oil from the quickly lubes and recycle the oil and has it formulated to be used in the DOD to prevent further Hazard waste. It's becoming an alarming rate which many average drivers are not aware of.

Synthetic oil entended OCI is the answer and I hope many can become aware of it's positive performance compared to conventional oil and it's enviromental effects.

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Give me a break. Oil can be recycled, either by re-refining back into cheap motor oil or into fuel/heating oil. Or the used motor oil can be burnt directly for heat (lots of shops do this). We just use ours for burning brush piles, etc. Don't feed me that greenie BS- I couldn't care less.

 

[Mamala Bay]

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Don't feed me that greenie BS- I couldn't care less.

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We got our BAD MONDAYS...seriously we should CARE...it's our country either way we see IT!

 

[sgtgeek]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheFuror:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gilitar:
I was just wondering if there is any advantage to using synthetic when doing 3000 mile OCI.

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I realize that I am in the decidely distinct minority on this issue here, but I use synthetic and change every 3K miles.

IMHO, regardless of the robustness of the additive package or quality of the base stock, there is no solution like dilution.

I believe that one of the primary benefits to changing frequently is to eliminate the particulate matter which, regardless of the life of your oil, is busy grinding away the inside of your engine.

Yep, I know Blazer and Patman (and just about everybody else for that matter), completely disagree with me on this notion. And while I genuinely admire and respect their opinions, the 3K mile rule of thumb works for me.

Bob W.

Furor: n. A general commotion; public disorder or uproar. [Middle English furour, wrath, fury, from Old French fureur, from Latin furor, from furere, to rage.]

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Heck I do not even go 3K with synthetics. GC or Amsoil get changed in the GTO every six months which equates to about 2400 miles max I am after the particulates/condensation myself....If I run it hard (road race/flying mile etc.) I change it after the runs......so I am guilty of changing synthetics sometimes after only 50-100 miles.....Heck don't get defensive! It is your ride man....change it whenever you want to...I get into flame wars on other forums over this from BITOG members on various LS1 sites all the time....they argue on a modified street/race car I should go 15,000 miles or switch to a dino....they just do not get performance/protection is the touchwood...not extended OCI's.....
Flip side is....if a guy has a grocery getter...no severe service ( ie towing/mountains/desert dust storms etc) then **** yes he/she/it can go a long time between changes.....just not a hard and fast OCI rule for "everybody".....IMHO

 

[John_E]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mamala Bay:
What happens with all that used oil in the enviroment. It's called Hazard Waste. Think of 750 million gallons of used oil and not to mention the oil that is being disposed illegally.
...

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Used motor oil is an environmental problem, to be sure, but it pales in comparison to gasoline production and consumption, used tires, global warming, metal refining, road construction, and automobile production and dismantling. If I can double the useful economic life of my car by reducing my OCI, the tradeoff is positive in both monetary and environmental terms. If you care about the environment, maintain your car properly, consolidate trips, cut out unnecessary driving (that's what my running shoes and bicycles are for), drive you car as long as you safely and economically can, and select your next vehicle carefully.

By the way, where I live (southern California), it is so convenient (and free) to bring used motor oil in for recycling that there is no longer any incentive to dump it illegally.

As I explained earlier, I don't need to justify my 3000-3500 mile / 5000-6000 km OCIs to anyone, because they are essentially "by the book," according to my owners' manuals and the type of driving (urban/severe) we tend to do. I have 5 years left on the Dodge's powertrain warranty, 6 on the Passat's.

[ March 19, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: John_E ]

 

[theguru]

Gilitar, as no one else has done so

.
BlazerLT, He did say he was a noob, even so this is a discussion forum, not school.

I use synthetic in all my cars because I believe they are better oils, not more cost effective or economical. And I change oils every 5,000km (3,000miles) either due to severe service or warranty which dictates at least changes 6 monthly regardless of mileage. One car I still had to change the oil even though I had done only 200km to meet the 6 months limit.

If my driving situation was different then I would consider longer OCI's.

Bottom line is I believe the synthetic I use is a better oil and I will change the oil to what is dictated or what suits me. It isn't about dino v's synthetic.

 

[BlazerLT]

I don't know, but the amount of people here in this thread still changing even their conventional oil at 3k is absolutely astounding.

Worse yet, they are even recommending it. What the...!

 

[Blue99]

quote:

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Originally posted by John_E:

Used motor oil is an environmental problem, to be sure, but it pales in comparison to gasoline production and consumption, used tires, global warming, metal refining, road construction, and automobile production and dismantling. If I can double the useful economic life of my car by reducing my OCI, the tradeoff is positive in both monetary and environmental terms. If you care about the environment, maintain your car properly, consolidate trips, cut out unnecessary driving (that's what my running shoes and bicycles are for), drive you car as long as you safely and economically can, and select your next vehicle carefully.

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I agree 100% with this statement. Running 3K OCI's or 6K OCI's is not going to make a dent in crude oil prices or consumption.

By far, the big markets of refined products have always been gasoline, diesel, jet fuel and home heating oil.

Lubricant's expressed as a % of a barrel of crude.

Buy your favorite conventional oil on sale & run any OCI up to 5K. Last I checked, the Oil Change Police don't have any jurisdiction in my town!

 

[JohnBrowning]

I say let UOA be your guide! I recently had a 6 month UOA that had slightly more then 3000 miles on it that was not that great! IT was not horrable and my engine was not self destructing but the oil did need to be changed by my personel standards. My wear metals were not that high but I could just as esily seen the same numbers after a 9000 mile interval. THe difference was in usage. This last UOA had a mostly short trips, extended idleing, sub-zero temp.'s!My insolubles were .5 wich is close to my limit of .6! If I had pushed this oil any further it would not have mad it in spite of the low miles.

I think that until you have some UOA to indicate differently that it is better to be cautious then bold! I would never have thought that my oil would have been in this bad of shape after 6 months of "sever service"!

 

[1sttruck]

Using the the synthetic oil study at http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html , and looking at the Mobil 1 5W30

Super-Syn Formula data, we have for the first six 1k samples:

miles, iron, make up oil

1k 10 0
2k 12 0
3k 14 .5
4k 19 .5
5k 23 .5
6k 26 .5

It's evidently a 5.7l engine with about a 6 qt sump. Looking at the iron rate normalized for sump + make up oil, engine displacement

and mileage, we have the rates shown in the second column. We need to look closer though as the rate at 2k states 6.3 but that's

different than the 10.5 rate at 1k, so we need to determine what the rate was for the second 1k miles, then the next 1k miles, etc.,

which is what we have in the third column. Since there is a big jump going from 3k to 4k, the data suggests that it's reasonable to

change it at 3k. I'll take a closer look at how to determine the rates for each sample interval, as so far I've done it this way just because it's easy to do.

1k 10.5 10.5
2k 6.3 2.1
3k 5.3 3.3
4k 5.8 7.4
5k 6.1 6.9
6k 6.1 6.2

 

[Gilitar]

Thanks for the data 1sttruck! That's exactly the kind of data that I was looking for. I guess I need to get a used oil analysis at 3k to see what it looks like. For now I will just be conservative with my OCI since i'm still under warranty, but after that expires I will try for 7500 mile OCI.

 

[JohnBrowning]

1sttruck that data is only meanigful for his application and does not apply across the board!

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002379

This is to my used oil analysis after about 3500 miles and it was with M1R Mobil 1's premium boutique oil fighter!

 

[Gilitar]

Ok, now i'm even more confused. I just read another topic about when to start running synthetics and most people state not until 10k or so do to wear metals. Should I just run some Havoline or Pennzoil for the next OCI or two? I've got the a couple of cases of RP sitting in my garage, but don't want to "waste" it. Opinions please.