3 year old Odyssey battery performance

pb

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I'm hoping the AGM/ TPPL battery guru's here will give me their thoughts as what, if any, options they may try to recover this battery from my abuse. And yes warranty is being looked into even though I fully accept the problem as caused by me.

Back in November 2017 I got my first Odyssey extreme battery, 34-pc1500. Longtime Optima user so I had no idea of Odyssey's required high amperage for recharging. So I kept using the BatteryMinder's 2 amp setting. Fast-forward to Dec '19 and I find the battery dead from sitting connected to a car I hadn't been driving often. So I recharge at the 2amp setting, finding the battery still performing poorly.

Odyssey's tech manual outlines a load test procedure. Placing a 7.7 amp load I measure the time to reach 10V. After a few recharge and repeats I find the time has not increased.

Some google searches later and I get a Schumacher sc1281 with 30a boost. The interval to reach 10V increases from 38 minutes to 62. However after several more cycles with the Schumacher this has not increased.

For the past 3 weeks I left the battery on the BatteryMinder hoping the desulfation would give a noticeable open circuit voltage gain. 10 hours off charger voltage at 13.07.
8 days later and it's 12.63. I believe that is ~80% SOC if 12.84 is 100%.

Is this battery toast? Should I con't to desulfate with the BatteryMinder? Should I look for a charger with greater current? Odyssey's largest charger tops out at 20 amps so I thought I was covered with the 30. Perhaps not?

tia,
parker
 
Odyssey has a Battery Reconditioning Procedure available for download on their website.

To hopefully reestablish full deliverable capacity, the following procedure is offered as a “reconditioning charge cycle procedure.”
  1. Discharge the battery using the vehicle headlights or connecting some electrical load to the battery and discharge to 10.0V under load measured with a hand-held digital volt meter. Once 10.0V is achieved, disconnect the electrical load or turn off the headlights or other electrical system or device.
  2. Begin recharging with an approved charger as listed at www.odysseybattery.com with appropriate amperage for the capacity of the battery, minimum 40% amperage of the 10 hour capacity rating of the battery. Utilizing chargers that achieve 14.7V during charge and 13.6V in float are ideal. Monitor the batteries terminal voltage with the charger operating to assure 15.0V is not exceeded at any time. Charge the battery until the charging amperage seems to be near zero amps and if the charger has a 13.6V float, float charge for 8-10 hours.
  3. If the battery gets hot to the touch (exceeds125F),stop charging and allow to cool. Once cool, begin charging again until charge complete.
  4. Charging times can be 6-10 hours depending on the charger amperage rating to the amp-hour rating of the battery. As an example, a 10 amp charger on an ODYSSEY PC925 would take approximately 7-8 hours to fully recharge.
  5. Performing more than one discharge and recharge cycle is beneficial to increasing restored capacity.
 
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Unless it comes with a 6 or 8 year non-prorated warranty, I couldn't see paying nearly $300 for a car battery. Especially for a car you hadn't been driving often. What was the reason you choose it?
 
So reconditioning says 40% of the 10hr capacity, in Amperes, but the chargers odyssey sells only go up to 20A? That tells you something right there.

Ive never seen compelling rationale as to why an odyssey’s design or chemistry is so different that it should take, or be harmed by some other conditions.
 
The tppl agm has super high cca and can be incredibly greedy when well depleted and hooked to a high amp charging source seeking high voltage.
Depleting them and giving them a 2 amp charger is like running a sprint, then being forced to breathe through a cocktail straw.

Your 30 amp charger...how long does it take the 30 amps to bring battery terminal voltage to 14.7v.?

Howmuch does the battery heat up?
How long does the charger hold the battery at 14.7v?
How many amps is the battery accepting when charger flashes green light and reverts to 13.6v?

Recovery of capacity is not gonna happen by weeks on a pulse desulfator.

If any is recoverable, it will be by relatively fast discharges and promptly applied high amp recharges until 14.7v is reached. And then 14.7v held until battery gets over 110f. Or amps stop tapering, or start rising again after hitting bottom.

I deep cycled a group 27 northstar agm for 6 years, and got 1200 deep cycles from it.

High amp.recharging from a well depleted state was the capacity reset that i initiated when noticing performance drop off from cycling with ~12 amps. Max, of low and slow solar was the main diet.

My group 31 Northstar that I replaced the 27 with, was able to accept 134 amps for several minutes of combined adjustable voltage power supply before the breaker blew.

The TPPL agms are a waste of money if they are not recharged properly when deeply discharged. 40 amps per 100ah of capacity is odyssey's specified minimum charge current. When deeply cycled.

Agms in general are.often thought.of as superior lead acid batteries...but they are not immune to chronic undercharging, and will be ticked to death with too little initial charge when well depleted, or if only ever recharged to 98%.

When new and healthy nothing will turn the starter motor faster, but that performance can take a dump quickly too.

The deeper the discharge...the more important the proper recharge becomes.

In deep cycle duty...if I go 7 deep cycles with no high amp recharge, voltage retention during subsequent disharges gets progressively poorer. It gets poorer despite meeting the criteria for a full charge..which is.when amps taper to 0.5 per.100 ah of capacity...when battery is held at 14.7v.

With 40 amps.available, on a newish healthy 100 amp hour group 31 depleted to 50%. It.will.take about 35 minutes for voltage to rise to 14.7. No less.than 3.5 hours later, the amps should taper to the 0.5 range.

The less.healthy the battery, the faster voltage will rise to 14.7v, and the longer it will take for amps to taper to 0.5 when held 14.7v.

When new it might have been able to get from 50% to 100% in 5.5 hours...but at half life it is likely no less than 8 hours and near end ofnlife no less than 10.

The 'smart' charger which does not hold absorption voltage for the increasing time required as the battery ages, is just kicking the battery in the crotch towards the cliff's edge.

Eventually the battery will never taper to.such low levels at 14.7v. But bottom out and start rising. Stop charging when this occurs. Let battery rest and.cool before trying againto.get amps.tomtaper.to.the prescribed level.at 14.7v

Knowing the aMperage flowing at float voltage is not.reallynhelpful. battery needs to be at 14.7v for amps to indicate 100%

Having a charging source capable of meeting the high charge rate. And which also holds absorption voltage for long enough, Is pretty much the only way to truly get great to excellent long term performance from a $$$ TPPL AGM, but especially when it is drawn to the 50% state of charge region, or less.

Restoring lost capacity of a.sulfated.tppl.agm, even if one were to acquire.the tools...and desire to monitor the acceptance of.the battery...coils.still be a lesson in futility.

But its replacement can then be treated right from day one.
 
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With 40 amps.available, on a newish healthy 100 amp hour group 31 depleted to 50%. It.will.take about 35 minutes for voltage to rise to 14.7. No less.than 3.5 hours later, the amps should taper to the 0.5 range.

Odyssey recommends that absorption phase be terminated when current reaches 0.001C10, or a maximum of 8 hours in absorption, whichever occurs first (page 15 in their tech manual).

e.g. 0.05A for a 50Ah battery.
 
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Single Group 31 Odyssey Extreme spinning a Cummins 6BT here, 160amp max load/120amp max load at idle alternator, and an old school external HD VR (14.6 winter first start, settles down to 14.2; and 13.8-14.0 in summer).

Has withstood winching, winter starts with the two 110amp grid heaters, 90 minutes at a time Webasto operation, etc etc for the past 5 years.

I do use the Repair mode (30-45 minutes) on it twice a year, and the AGM/cold mode (2-3 minutes) on it every couple months.

Like the poster above mentioned, nothing spins an engine over quicker than a healthy AGM.

62109270390__07CFCD17-EB10-4CF0-A153-F0DE6630E9D3.JPG

IMG_6268.jpeg
 
I wish manufacturers would stick with the 20 hour rate with their recommendations rather than throwing out the 10 hour rate. I guess I've not closely read Odyssey PDF in 5 years.

The 0.5% rate c20 is lifeline/Concorde AGM recommendation, but they are more a Deep Cycle battery, opposed to a dual purpose. They market starting batteries, but they have same specs as their deep cycle.

Page 19.

Concorde/Lifeline is the only AGM manufacturer to recommend a higher voltage 'reconditioning' procedure which is basically 15.5v applied for 8 hours after amps have tapered to 0.5% @ 14.4v per their regular 'full' recharge.




Ofelas, Wishing my alternators could each manage more than ~50 amps at idle, My second one is installed and aligned, but I've not wired it up yet. it looks very similar to yours but for the serpentine pulley. I have dual V belts.

I just pulled my group 31 1050CCA 103 AH Northstar AGM down to 11.6v, under a 7 to 10 amp load over 5 to 6 hours ,and the amp hour counter indicated it was depleted 63 of its 103Ah capacity.

I have my 100 amp adjustable voltage power supply on it, and slowly dialed up voltage from 11.7 to 14.4v where it maxed out at 97 amps.

After a few minutes at 97 amps the voltage dropped to 14.1v, then started rising again. I've noticed this often when the battery is taken this low. The voltage rises to about 14.4 with 40, or 94 to 97 amps of charging source, then drops with time and constant amperage, then again rises towards 14.7 at which point amps taper.

I've noticed it when my alternator is the charging source too. RPM's are another factor in ability to maintain the desired voltage, but the battery itself does a little shimmy in the beginning as well as it wakes up to the charging source.


Right now amps have tapered to 50 at 14.7v.

Lowering voltage to 13.6v and giving it 30 seconds to stabilize, 20.4 amps while still 23 Ah from full

Spin voltage/ electrical pressure dial back up to 14.7v, 48.7 amps.

I love TPPL AGMS, they can just easily and happily gobble so much amperage, when healthy, and still under 80% charged, when the charger is told to seek 14.4v+ with all the amperage its got available.

I have some older but healthy GC-2 6v AGMS marketed by West marine I pulled from a boat that got new Lifelines.
Two of them in series for 190 Amp hours and about 90% more weight than my group 31 Northstar, cant accept as much amperage as the Northstar when well depleted, nor maintain the same voltage under high amperage loads.

They claim 970 CCA for 140Lbs of battery.
The TPPL Northstar-31 has 1050 CCA for 75 Lbs.
 
There are other AGMs out there besides the Odyssey. Is the Odyssey better or just more expensive? Do the other AGMs have the same strict charging requirements as an Odyssey?
 
The tppl agm has super high cca and can be incredibly greedy when well depleted and hooked to a high amp charging source seeking high voltage.
Depleting them and giving them a 2 amp charger is like running a sprint, then being forced to breathe through a cocktail straw.

Your 30 amp charger...how long does it take the 30 amps to bring battery terminal voltage to 14.7v.?

Howmuch does the battery heat up?
How long does the charger hold the battery at 14.7v?
How many amps is the battery accepting when charger flashes green light and reverts to 13.6v?

Recovery of capacity is not gonna happen by weeks on a pulse desulfator.

If any is recoverable, it will be by relatively fast discharges and promptly applied high amp recharges until 14.7v is reached. And then 14.7v held until battery gets over 110f. Or amps stop tapering, or start rising again after hitting bottom.

I deep cycled a group 27 northstar agm for 6 years, and got 1200 deep cycles from it.

High amp.recharging from a well depleted state was the capacity reset that i initiated when noticing performance drop off from cycling with ~12 amps. Max, of low and slow solar was the main diet.

My group 31 Northstar that I replaced the 27 with, was able to accept 134 amps for several minutes of combined adjustable voltage power supply before the breaker blew.

The TPPL agms are a waste of money if they are not recharged properly when deeply discharged. 40 amps per 100ah of capacity is odyssey's specified minimum charge current. When deeply cycled.

Agms in general are.often thought.of as superior lead acid batteries...but they are not immune to chronic undercharging, and will be ticked to death with too little initial charge when well depleted, or if only ever recharged to 98%.

When new and healthy nothing will turn the starter motor faster, but that performance can take a dump quickly too.

The deeper the discharge...the more important the proper recharge becomes.

In deep cycle duty...if I go 7 deep cycles with no high amp recharge, voltage retention during subsequent disharges gets progressively poorer. It gets poorer despite meeting the criteria for a full charge..which is.when amps taper to 0.5 per.100 ah of capacity...when battery is held at 14.7v.

With 40 amps.available, on a newish healthy 100 amp hour group 31 depleted to 50%. It.will.take about 35 minutes for voltage to rise to 14.7. No less.than 3.5 hours later, the amps should taper to the 0.5 range.

The less.healthy the battery, the faster voltage will rise to 14.7v, and the longer it will take for amps to taper to 0.5 when held 14.7v.

When new it might have been able to get from 50% to 100% in 5.5 hours...but at half life it is likely no less than 8 hours and near end ofnlife no less than 10.

The 'smart' charger which does not hold absorption voltage for the increasing time required as the battery ages, is just kicking the battery in the crotch towards the cliff's edge.

Eventually the battery will never taper to.such low levels at 14.7v. But bottom out and start rising. Stop charging when this occurs. Let battery rest and.cool before trying againto.get amps.tomtaper.to.the prescribed level.at 14.7v

Knowing the aMperage flowing at float voltage is not.reallynhelpful. battery needs to be at 14.7v for amps to indicate 100%

Having a charging source capable of meeting the high charge rate. And which also holds absorption voltage for long enough, Is pretty much the only way to truly get great to excellent long term performance from a $$$ TPPL AGM, but especially when it is drawn to the 50% state of charge region, or less.

Restoring lost capacity of a.sulfated.tppl.agm, even if one were to acquire.the tools...and desire to monitor the acceptance of.the battery...coils.still be a lesson in futility.

But its replacement can then be treated right from day one.
Thank you for the detailed response. Garage temp was 40. Battery never got hot. I did feel warmth from center/side when running my hand around it. The cables warmed though. As you probably know, that charger will boost > 30 amps for ~20 seconds, then 19 amps for a couple minutes. Then back up to 30 amps, cycle repeats 2 more times. Voltage stays around 14.9 till current tapers below 9 amps, then I see 13.6V. Only good I see from this charger is it's ability to put out current. The yellow charging lamp is all I've seen. It's never gone to charged/ maintaining even when left for 7 days.
I'll inquire with friends if anyone has a larger charger to try and observe.
 
Is this a new 100A power supply you recently bought? It must have cost $$$$
I had a friend buy it close to about 8 years ago, I think it was about 320$ then.

The specific model is no longer offered.

It is not a lab style power supply with a current potentiometer only a voltage dial.

It is a PFC'd RV converter by Powermax, but it is made to be a single voltage model.
It came with a voltage dial and a voltmeter and a 120vAC cord. One adds their own DC cabling.

Most of their converter models are 3 or 4 stage chargers with an Algorithm OK for an RV needing to get to 85% charged quickly, but not ideal for the 85 to 100% range when time to full is a factor such as when running a generator.

The closest to what I have can be found here, and they can go upto 120 amps:


A while back my friend started suffering from dementia, and gave me the power supply.

I've added a 10 turn potentiometer for more precise voltage adjustment, and a 60mm computer fan on a switch with a backlit voltmeter and added some air filters on the intakes as it is often in a dusty environment.
It comes with a loud powerful 80mm fan but it will cycle on and off annoyingly, the 60mm fan is much quieter and keeps the loud fan from coming on until hot ambient temps or output is in the 40+ amp range for a while.

------
Don't confuse regular car starting AGM batteries, with TPPL AGMs.
Thin Plate Pure Lead have higher CCA / less resistance, and basically no limits on charging amps as long as voltage is limited and compensated for battery temperature.

Most AGM manufacturers will recommend limiting charging to ~30 amps per 100Ah of capacity.

Thin plate and deep cycle are usually not uttered in the same sentence, but the TPPL AGMs perform quite well in deep cycle duty, and their starter turning ability is unmatched. Not sure how they pull this off, but my experience with my Northstar group 27 was impressive.

It's just when TPPL agms are deeply cycled they cannot be fed a low and slow trickle charge diet, or their capacity tanks. One needs to let them feed on a high amp charging source seeking mid to high 14 volts from their most depleted state, perhaps not each and every recharge, but this is the regimen which keeps them happiest. I try to go no more than 7 deep cycles without some high amperage thrown in.

Even regular '30% limited' AGMS seem to benefit from upto a 30% charge rate in deep cycle usage.

I have some small AGMs, 18 and 22 Ah each, which say 5.4 and 6.6 charging amps max.
I've put them on the 100 amp charger from low states of charge and dial them upto 14.8v.

They can accept ~10x their 'max' recommended rate, though I usually dial it down to about 2 to 3 times the recommended maximum then bump up the voltage in stages towards 14.8v. They heat up, but not alarmingly so.

I expect that to change as they age and will be more careful exposing them to a charger with 100 amps potential.

They still perform well though the 18Ah is a year older and is exhibiting some weirdness, in that it will not taper to 0.09 amps at 14.7v on the first try. I have to let it sit and try again. Sometimes it tapers to [email protected], others it just stops at 0.14a and starts rising

My 40 amp adjustable voltage power supply is a Meanwell rsp-500-15. It too is modified with a better voltage potentiometer, and more ventilation and heatsinking, and will output 40 amps at any voltage I choose between 13.12 and 19.23v. Cost about $120 delivered in 2014.

I have combined the Meanwell and the Powermax for that 134 amp total. The Powermax can't make its full output with input voltage under ~114vAC and it nearly maxes out a 15 amp household circuit by itself. Powering the Meanwell and Powermax on same circuit trips the 15 amp breaker after a few minutes.

The Meanwell , I have a shunted ammeter and an ideal Diode on the output. The meter displays volts, amps, watts, watt hours and amp hours.

The Ideal diode drops only 0.04v at 40 amps output, and is basically so I can leave the DC hooked up and unplug the AC, and have the meter and additional cooling fans shut off. Plug in and it starts charging automatically at whatever voltage I left it at when I unplugged.

Without the Diode then the fans and meter continue running unless I unhook the 45 amp Anderson Powerpole DC connectors.

I want to modify the Powermax similarly, one day. The voltmeter is good but whats more important is knowing how many amps are flowing into the battery ( or other DC loads) at that voltage. The total amp hours/ watt hours accepted when amps taper to prescribed 'full' levels at absorption voltage can help one to estimate battery state of charge when it was hooked up, and state of health.

The more data the better.

I've not tried Lifeline's 'reconditioning' procedure on my TPPL AGMs, but could simply by twisting the voltage dial.
I have done Odyssey's procedure, but not quite down to 10.0v, and my battery did not see much if any improvement over the regular high amp recharge from ~50% SOC, as it was simply wearing out from use, not compromised from sulfation caused by too low an initial charging current or chronic undercharging or sitting undercharged for extended periods of time.

If a TPPL battery is exhibiting poor capacity and performance, I would first try the Odyssey procedure and try and judge results, Then the Lifeline reconditioning procedure.

The Lifeline procedure will force some gas past the vents, but would have to be of extreme duration and repeated often before it would 'dry it out', as some seem to think happens instantly and is an instant battery killer.

Monitor battery temperature fairly closely though.

If sulfation is not completely hardened, elevated temperature stands a battery chance at dissolving it, but charging amperage related heating can occur quickly. It can shoot past 105f to 115f in a few minutes and 120F is the upper limit.

A high amp charging source on a well depleted but sulfated AGM should be able to get it above 100f, but if it is really sulfated then only 20 amps might be required to bring it to 14.7v and while 20 amps might be considered high amperage, it does not qualify on a car sized battery and will not be as effective compared to if it took 40 amps for twice as long before reaching absorption voltage.

Often the battery will not improve no matter how much attention one gives it, or the gains can be minimal and fleeting.
I found the efforts to restore a battery, often proved fruitless.
They did however help subsequent batteries remain much healthier for much longer.

But the biggest factor in improving lifespan in deep cycle duty, is not believing the smart charger's green light.

My schumacher charger is only used on other vehicles, when it has the potential to grow legs. When it reverts to float voltage and there is no danger of it growing legs I will put my meanwell on it, set it to 14.7v, reset the amp hour counter, and see how long it takes for amps to stop tapering or start rising and with a flooded battery perhaps bust out the hydrometer. I estimate the Schumacher stops absorption almost every time in the 87 to 92% charged range. rarely have I been able to stuff less than 8 more amp hours into the battery after the schumacher has reverted to float voltage.

More than good enough to start an engine, but totally inadequate for achieving maximum potential longevity and performance of the battery.
 
wrcsixeight - some nice testing equipment there!

What application is that 50amp at idle alternator for?
 
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