2012 Nissan GTR

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Car and Driver's Annual Lightning Lap at VIR is a good way to compare track performance of street cars. Conditions will vary from year to year, but it's pretty much the same set of drivers driving all the cars on the same track. Not counting the X-Bow, the '09 GT-R is in 9th place. Here's the top ten so far:

1 2:45.9 MOSLER MT900S
2 2:48.6 DODGE VIPER SRT10 ACR
3 2:49.8 MOSLER PHOTON
4 2:49.8 CHEVROLET CORVETTE ZR1
5 2:51.8 LAMBORGHINI GALLARDO LP570-4 SUPERLEGGERA
6 2:52.3 KTM X-BOW
7 2:53.5 CHEVROLET CORVETTE Z06
8 2:53.9 LAMBORGHINI MURCIÉLAGO LP670-4 SV
9 2:54.6 FERRARI 430 SCUDERIA
10 2:55.6 NISSAN GT-R

C&D Lightning Lap Rankings

That was then. This is now.

The Nissan GT-R has been substantially revised for 2012:

- Less aerodynamic drag
- More downforce
- Less unsprung and rotating mass
- Stiffer chassis
- Modified suspension geometry
- Bigger front brakes
- Significantly more horsepower
- Revised transmission programming: faster, smoother, and easier on the mechanicals.

And, if you care, better engine and brake cooling, and better fuel economy.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/16/2012-nissan-gt-r-first-drive-review-road-test/

In short, the 2012 GT-R goes faster, handles better, stops shorter, and drives smoother than the '09, and you can use launch control all day without fear. If we're worried about lap times, I would think that changes the calculus slightly.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Add to the above there are so many variables. I have friends who race VIR in cars like mine, and they turn in way better times than C&D did on their SRT8's.

I looked it up and their car had ALL SEASONS on it. That's a huge handicap on a whale like mine.

But back on topic, IMO the GT-R, while extremely capable, is not much for driver involvement or 'feel'. Plus it still sounds like a vacuum cleaner!

I would take that cool dash display though.

 

[david_ES2]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
If you buy a new GTR and a Corvette ZR1 or even Z06, what will you have 10 years later? An old Japanese car you can't get parts for and a Corvette that you can get parts for. 20 more years you have a collectible Corvette and a Japanese car that few will remember.

I recognize that the GTR is a stellar performer and I commend Nissan for producing it. But you can't fix ugly. The car is not very attractive at all plus looks more like any other sporty japanese car like an eclipse or something.

It is like the Acura NSX - what an awesome car when it came out, but today you can get 'em for about $15k and they've mostly been forgotten.



yeah...um sorry but I DONT THINK SO

 

[AccordV6MN]

I looked up lap time up at nurburgring and the percentage of American cars are still small in comparison but surely occupied better spot than many European cars. It seems that American cars have hardly tested in the ring (I wonder why?). I know that GM has its own testing ground and maybe the don't feel the need to tested in the ring before. Not sure if Ford and Chrysler have their own proving ground.

I surely hope American cars perform better than the European counter parts. Wouldn't it be nice to pay less fro more performance? As other poster said, more parts availability 20 yr down the road.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: meangreen01
Originally Posted By: GMBoy


It is like the Acura NSX - what an awesome car when it came out, but today you can get 'em for about $15k and they've mostly been forgotten.



$15k? Maybe an automatic that's been in a wreck with 100k miles. Most that have been cared for as a true exotic should still go for $30k and up. I keep an eye on them as one of my all-time favorite cars. Plus a guy can dream, right?


Yeah I don't know what he is smoking you have to spend close to $40k for a decent NSX. Their value is following their contemporary Ferrari and 911 competition pretty well.

The NSX is a fantastic car, as is the GTR.

A lot of people like to hate the Japanese cars but they do show the Europeans and Americans a thing or two when they release them. The NSX proved in the late 80's that a super car could be as reliable as anything else, and you didn't have to put up with [censored] quality. Why do you think that since the NSX came out every Corvette, Viper, Lambo, and Ferrari has been made pretty good? People won't put up with [censored] quality anymore. The days of the Countach are over.

The GTR proved that you don't need to spend $300k+ on an super exotic to put down super exotic numbers. Plus unlike a super exotic you can drive it every day, it actually has ground clearance. For $90k or whatever they cost you can buy a car that will run with a $250k Porsche GT2, or a $300k Ferrari or $400k Lambo. Not bad, Nissan.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Well, you certainly could look at it that way. But you could just as easily say that the American mans only build two cars that are in this class of car, and BOTH of them occupy three of the spots in the list you linked. I'd call that batting 1000. btw, that list is slightly dated, currently I think the Z06 has been bumped from the top ten.

The previously mentioned Pony cars are not intended, nor will they ever be in this class of car being discussed in this thread. Their main purpose other than the V6 models, is to provide 90% of the performance of a true sports car for 1/4-1/2 the price, with a little added utility(rear seat) thrown in for good measure. They fill that gap nicely, but they are not sports cars in the truest sense, and they sell for a fraction of the cars being talked about here.

Yes, the Detroit mans have extensive testing facilities, all over the globe. If you are interested, I'll send you some info...here is Fords Test facilities site.... Ford Test Facilities
BUT it doesn't carry near the same marketing cache as claiming a better time at Germanys legendary track. Hence why GM and Ford have been going there for a long time to test and compare. Admittedly, the Germans have the advantage, it's right in their backyard...it's very expensive for Ford and GM to do the same.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: meangreen01
Originally Posted By: GMBoy


It is like the Acura NSX - what an awesome car when it came out, but today you can get 'em for about $15k and they've mostly been forgotten.



$15k? Maybe an automatic that's been in a wreck with 100k miles. Most that have been cared for as a true exotic should still go for $30k and up. I keep an eye on them as one of my all-time favorite cars. Plus a guy can dream, right?


I'm sorry - you are correct. The average price for a nice one is right around the $30-45k mark. Some higher. WHat did they cost new, $100k? It was a neat car. I had seen 2 on quick ebay search. They were a little rough.

 

[d00df00d]

I think the NSX comparison is a good one. Impeccable engineering and supercar performance, plus some big advantages, for a preposterously low price -- at the cost of driver involvement and a lot of the "sizzle" that makes the exotics worth driving.

At least, that's what I get from the reviews...

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
If you buy a new GTR and a Corvette ZR1 or even Z06, what will you have 10 years later? An old Japanese car you can't get parts for and a Corvette that you can get parts for. 20 more years you have a collectible Corvette and a Japanese car that few will remember.

I recognize that the GTR is a stellar performer and I commend Nissan for producing it. But you can't fix ugly. The car is not very attractive at all plus looks more like any other sporty japanese car like an eclipse or something.

It is like the Acura NSX - what an awesome car when it came out, but today you can get 'em for about $15k and they've mostly been forgotten.


Nonsense. People in Japan who love collectibles still have the 1970s Nissan GT-R, and the early Fairlady (Their Z car).

The Nissan 240SX/Silvia hasn't been sold in for many years, look at how many drifters are still restoring them. The last RWD Toyota Corrolla is even older than that, and drifters still restore them.

The Mazda RX-7 may have been one of the most difficult Japanese cars to own, but look how many people hang on to their 1993-1995 RX-7, and look at how many hang on to the earlier turbo RX-7.

How many people in the USA don't remember any Nissan Z car? Most of them are still popular, and most of the ones that never saw road salt are still around.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
If you buy a new GTR and a Corvette ZR1 or even Z06, what will you have 10 years later? An old Japanese car you can't get parts for and a Corvette that you can get parts for. 20 more years you have a collectible Corvette and a Japanese car that few will remember.

I recognize that the GTR is a stellar performer and I commend Nissan for producing it. But you can't fix ugly. The car is not very attractive at all plus looks more like any other sporty japanese car like an eclipse or something.

It is like the Acura NSX - what an awesome car when it came out, but today you can get 'em for about $15k and they've mostly been forgotten.


Nonsense. People in Japan who love collectibles still have the 1970s Nissan GT-R, and the early Fairlady (Their Z car).

The Nissan 240SX/Silvia hasn't been sold in for many years, look at how many drifters are still restoring them. The last RWD Toyota Corrolla is even older than that, and drifters still restore them.

The Mazda RX-7 may have been one of the most difficult Japanese cars to own, but look how many people hang on to their 1993-1995 RX-7, and look at how many hang on to the earlier turbo RX-7.

How many people in the USA don't remember any Nissan Z car? Most of them are still popular, and most of the ones that never saw road salt are still around.



True - but very very few and most other people don't care for them like say an old Corvette or GT500 etc. Not that that's bad I, for one, am for anyone in the car hobby be it they restore vintage American or what ever. I've got a guy in my area with an absolute pristine 280zx turbo. I enjoyed the 80's flashback with that one.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: meangreen01
Originally Posted By: GMBoy


It is like the Acura NSX - what an awesome car when it came out, but today you can get 'em for about $15k and they've mostly been forgotten.



$15k? Maybe an automatic that's been in a wreck with 100k miles. Most that have been cared for as a true exotic should still go for $30k and up. I keep an eye on them as one of my all-time favorite cars. Plus a guy can dream, right?


I'm sorry - you are correct. The average price for a nice one is right around the $30-45k mark. Some higher. WHat did they cost new, $100k? It was a neat car. I had seen 2 on quick ebay search. They were a little rough.


My friend was looking to buy one and your going to spend $40k-$50k or more for a nice NSX. Not saying a deal cannot be found but most of the cheaper ones have spaceship mileage and other issues.

Instead he decided he wanted a truck and bought a G500.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
My friend was looking to buy one and your going to spend $40k-$50k or more for a nice NSX. Not saying a deal cannot be found but most of the cheaper ones have spaceship mileage and other issues.

Instead he decided he wanted a truck and bought a G500.


My buddy and I were checking out a 2005 NSX with 15k miles for $45k at the local Acura dealer this summer. I think it was only there for a couple of days. We figured it must have been in a big collision or something because that's what older ones with more mileage are usually priced at. It was hard to resist looking into it further, but neither of us have the excess cash for a pure toy right now.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
That was then. This is now.

The Nissan GT-R has been substantially revised for 2012:


I do expect a better time for the new GT-R if Nissan provides one for the 2012 event. As it is, it's already the bargain of the group!

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Add to the above there are so many variables. I have friends who race VIR in cars like mine, and they turn in way better times than C&D did on their SRT8's.

I looked it up and their car had ALL SEASONS on it. That's a huge handicap on a whale like mine.


The 3:18 was done on Goodyear RS-A all-seasons, but the 3:16 was done with Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar summer tires, and those tires show up multiple times in the top 20 cars. I have an older spreadsheet that has all that info, but I haven't come across an updated one.

There certainly are variables involved. Maybe it was a hot day or something. It was July, though many other cars were run that day too. Are your friends' cars stock, with automatic transmissions?

The GT-R was almost four seconds slower on all-seasons than on summer tires, all on the same July day that they ran the SRT-8 on summers.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Well, you certainly could look at it that way. But you could just as easily say that the American mans only build two cars that are in this class of car, and BOTH of them occupy three of the spots in the list you linked. I'd call that batting 1000. btw, that list is slightly dated, currently I think the Z06 has been bumped from the top ten.


That Z06 time was put up in their most recent event. Z06s have appeared at a couple of earlier events with slower lap times, but this is the new Z07 package. I maybe should have noted that designation in the list. It includes the 15.5" Brembo carbon-ceramic brakes and magnetorheological shocks from the ZR-1 and, probably most importantly, the ZR-1's Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires.

I got a chance to drive my buddy's "new" '09 Z06 a couple of weeks ago. It was at night on unfamiliar roads, so I didn't really get to drive it hard other than a couple hard straight runs on empty roads. Apparently, it could break the OE tires loose in second gear last fall. He bought some Pilot Sports for it this spring and I didn't even break them loose while rolling in first.

 

[AccordV6MN]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Admittedly, the Germans have the advantage, it's right in their backyard...it's very expensive for Ford and GM to do the same.


It'd probably cost more for GM and Ford to the the test but not to the point very expensive. Considering the cost of design, which is in the states ($ vs Euro), it's much cheaper hence the final cost to customers are less. On top of that, what ever the development and testing cost will be passed on to the customers. Companies aren't just going to eat up the cost on their own. Thus, it'll be more beneficial if GM and Ford test their car where it carries more weight for comparison for brand recognition. If they can sell their car more world wide, the cost to test will be close to nothing or consider that cost as an advertisement.

The world need to know that the new GM and Ford can build fast cars that can make a nice corner unlike ones back in the 70's. Reputation from the past carry some weight, just like Fiat coming back to the states recently and many still mock Fiat.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

BUT it doesn't carry near the same marketing cache as claiming a better time at Germanys legendary track. Hence why GM and Ford have been going there for a long time to test and compare. Admittedly, the Germans have the advantage, it's right in their backyard...it's very expensive for Ford and GM to do the same.


Accord, I think thats precisely what I said, the added marketing cache is a benefit that offsets the additional expense.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Well, you certainly could look at it that way. But you could just as easily say that the American mans only build two cars that are in this class of car, and BOTH of them occupy three of the spots in the list you linked. I'd call that batting 1000. btw, that list is slightly dated, currently I think the Z06 has been bumped from the top ten.


That Z06 time was put up in their most recent event. Z06s have appeared at a couple of earlier events with slower lap times, but this is the new Z07 package. I maybe should have noted that designation in the list. It includes the 15.5" Brembo carbon-ceramic brakes and magnetorheological shocks from the ZR-1 and, probably most importantly, the ZR-1's Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires.

I got a chance to drive my buddy's "new" '09 Z06 a couple of weeks ago. It was at night on unfamiliar roads, so I didn't really get to drive it hard other than a couple hard straight runs on empty roads. Apparently, it could break the OE tires loose in second gear last fall. He bought some Pilot Sports for it this spring and I didn't even break them loose while rolling in first.


I think our wires are a bit crossed. I'm referring to the list of times at the ring that Accord posted. Not the list from the car magazines shootouts. The list from the ring has the old ZR1 times from the 2011 model, there has since been a 2012 ZR1 run and the Z06 has fallen off the top ten iirc.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I think the NSX comparison is a good one. Impeccable engineering and supercar performance, plus some big advantages, for a preposterously low price -- at the cost of driver involvement and a lot of the "sizzle" that makes the exotics worth driving.


As far as 'driving dynamics', overall performance, and reliability for the coin goes, yes, the NSX was quite the thing when it came out.
But, as far as I was/am concerned, it was (and still is) kind of ***** in stock form (some of the All Japan GT racing versions are wicked looking).

I know it is sacrilege, and blasphemy (to most on here at least) but I also think that the Carrera GT is butt ugly as well in the same kind of 'long deckish' way.
Now of course one CANNOT argue with it's; performance, sound, build quality, etc.

 

[tonycarguy]

Re: cost of service.

That's the thing about these entry-level exotics. You'll have these $30k millionares who get a 144-month loan to buy a $100k car like a GTR or used Ferrari/Lambo, and then when it's time to service it they can't afford it. Or the car is underinsured because they can't afford full coverage, and one day they get into a 5MPH fender bender and their jaw drops when they see the $15k body repair bill.