2008 Dodge Ram 5.7L RP 5W20 ( #2 )

[NHHEMI]

VEHICLE:
2008 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7L HEMI

OIL & FILTER:
RP 5W20 ***
RP Filter # 20-820
*** NOTE - no oil was added between OC's( not needed - no drop on dipstick )

MILEAGE & TIME:
Oil Sampled Placed In Service = 05/26/2010 @ 14860 miles
Oil Sample Taken = 12/29/2010 @ 19894 miles
In Service Miles = 5034
In Service Time = 7 Months 3 Days

SERVICE CONDITIONS:
Summer/Fall/Early Winter( Just a little idle time during winter )
Towing( Not much but some - all Oct + )
90% City 10% Highway
Conservative Driving

PREVIOUS OCI HISTORY:
FF changed @ 1500 miles( used PP 5W20 & MOPAR filter )
RP 5W20 & RP Filter @ 4494 Miles
RP 5W20 & RP Filter @ 9465 Miles
RP 5W20 & RP Filter @ 14860 Miles( 1st UOA done )

I decided to have the oil tested again after the disapointing 1st UOA. Ran the oil for approx 7 months/5K again( approx 350 less miles and about 2 weeks less service time this go round )to try and keep the interval as close as I could. Time of year is different but that is about all.

The UOA improved but I am still not fully happy. Actually it is a pretty good one if not for the copper and aluminum. Still a very high copper number and that is what is concerning me most. The aluminum not so much. Only had 14K on the engine at the 1st UOA so break in residuals didn't concern me too much but I am basically at 20K now and the copper, while down 38, is still too high. I was really hoping for a much bigger drop. Kind of hoped to see aluminum drop into range too the way iron and silicone did.

By 20K and with 4 previous OC's to this one am I still being plagued by break in metals? I was glad to see the silicone drop so that is fine as I expected it would be. The TBN was improved this time as well( as I understand it copper can drag that down so the improved copper numbers can be behind improved TBN ). Just wish the copper dropped more too.

Maybe I am being over anxious. Copper did drop and my engine is running fine. Smooth and quiet as can be and it just broke 20K on me the other day. I don't even have the infamous HEMI Tick let alone bearing noise or anything indicating a mechanical problem. The thing I don't get is where all the copper is coming from? Supposedly there is no copper in the bearings.

I am going to have to double check I guess but I am pretty sure there is an oil cooler on this truck and that is probably where it is coming from. Would you guys agree? I can see a cooler on the front of the radiator that does not go to the tranny and it is not part of the AC system either so I am pretty sure that is it. I can find a listing for an oil cooler for the truck on the Dodge part's sites but no schematic to show me where. Think I will get a full production/build sheet from the dealer today and look for an oil cooler code.

Anyway, an improved UOA and but for that dang copper not too bad. TBN is still lower than I want but again could be due to the high copper I have read.

So here is UOA #2( note - all non relevant info has been removed by me before posting )...

 

[Turk]

Good, detailed layout of the conditions!

Like GM, those metals may be high for a while yet...

 

[demarpaint]

I would think that by 20,000 mines most of the copper would have leached out by now. Having said that, since your last sample was taken just under 20,000 miles next OCI is the one that really matters. I would take one more sample at 25,000 miles or in 5000 more miles of service and then see what happens.

Nice detailed report as tpitcher said!

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I would think that by 20,000 mines most of the copper would have leached out by now. Having said that, since your last sample was taken just under 20,000 miles next OCI is the one that really matters. I would take one more sample at 25,000 miles or in 5000 more miles of service and then see what happens.

Nice detailed report as tpitcher said!


Good point. The oil was placed in service at 15K and taken out and sampled at 20K. I keep forgeting that I am just at 20K now following the OC. I guess it is not unreasonable to see break in metals still.

I will sample again at 25K and see what it looks like. I won't go to the 7K Blackstone wants me to as it would just take me too long to get there. I am supposed to go no longer than 6 months on OC's and I have pushed it to 7 both times just to break 5K.

 

[dave1251]

Your copper will be elevated for about another 10K. This happens with american v8 pushrod engines I would not worry about it. Your HEMI will outlast the rest of the truck.

 

[NHHEMI]

No oil cooler. Got the build sheet and it does not have one. The cooler I thought was possibly an oil cooler is actually a power steering fluid cooler( never heard of such a thing ).

If the next UOA still shows 100+ high copper I am going to do a run with a different oil to see what happens.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Only have one car in my stable WITHOUT a power steering cooler. They're pretty common these days.

No worries with the Hemi, it's trending the right way. There's a ton of some sort of copper based sealant or something used in these motors for some reason.

All is well.

 

[shpankey]

I've seen on several accounts that american v8's don't fully finish breaking in till 20k miles. I guess it depends on your break-in routine. But since you changed out so early and often with high quality synthetic's I wouldn't expect yours to any sooner than that.

I ran my first 2 oil changes to 3k miles then 4k miles with conventional and broke it in fairly firmly and my car broke in sooner than most others of the same type (noting UOA's). But most seemed to fully break-in after 20k miles.\\I wouldn't worry, especially for yours. I've seen so many american v8's show high copper for the first 20k miles now that I think yours is perfectly normal. Very very common on them.

 

[badtlc]

I think the trend is all that matters and right now the trend looks good.

 

[pcfxer]

You changed your factory fill too soon, read your manual.

You are trending very well and are below universal average, why are you worried anyhow?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
If the next UOA still shows 100+ high copper I am going to do a run with a different oil to see what happens.


IMO that would be a mistake, the engine is trending nicely. If you change brands at the next OCI the break in might be nearing completion and the "different brand" oil will get credit when in fact credit might not be due. I think I would stick with RP, it hasn't let you down in the past. Again JMO

 

[addyguy]

Nothing at all to worry about - all other metals are good and low, and the engine runs well, so the copper 'spike' is just copper sealant leaching, or bronze parts leaching.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No worries with the Hemi, it's trending the right way. There's a ton of some sort of copper based sealant or something used in these motors for some reason.


I wondered about a copper based sealant and have asked about that. I was told they did not believe any was used. Guess that is what I get for believing guys at the dealership even when they are good guys. So you have seen/heard of this before and it is due to copper in sealant used?

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Nothing at all to worry about - all other metals are good and low, and the engine runs well, so the copper 'spike' is just copper sealant leaching, or bronze parts leaching.


I agree I just would like to know for sure what is behind it. I am very anal and thus I worry about stuff even when I know it is not a big deal.

Thanks guys.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
If the next UOA still shows 100+ high copper I am going to do a run with a different oil to see what happens.


IMO that would be a mistake, the engine is trending nicely. If you change brands at the next OCI the break in might be nearing completion and the "different brand" oil will get credit when in fact credit might not be due. I think I would stick with RP, it hasn't let you down in the past. Again JMO


I agree with your point unless the copepr stays over 100. It needs to continue to drop.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: pcfxer
You changed your factory fill too soon, read your manual.

You are trending very well and are below universal average, why are you worried anyhow?


There is nothing special in the FF oil to account for this. Nothing in the owner's manual about early changing either.

Copper is WAY over universal averages for both UOA's. The universal averages are way to the right. That column in the middle is the average for the two UOA's. Copper averages are 41. The 1st UOA was 139 and the 2nd was 101. Again, way over and those numbers are high. Aluminum is a bit high too with 5 and then 4 vs the universal avg of 2. That one does not concern me the way copper does though.

I don't mean any offense by this either. Just explaining.

 

[shpankey]

The universal averages are based on oil changes from all kinds of different mileages. Your numbers are from the break-in period, which is why yours are higher. They will come down soon. This is perfectly normal.

I could link some links that show UOA's of V8's throwing high copper for a long time on new vehicles but I suspect you probably know how to find them. But I've seen many members here comment about it as well so I guess it's a pretty well known phenomenon.

If you had ran your FF out all the way and maybe done one conventional run after that with some good hard break-in runs, it may have evened out by now but you've ran some top quality oil's. I bet your next run it comes down quite a bit and the run after that will get into the normal ranges. It seems 20k is the new 10k on break-in time.