I've never understood why drum brake setups are significantly cheaper than disk. Is most of the money actually going to the designers? Doesn't seem like it would be the hardware.
2007 Silverado's have rear drum brakes standard
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Mostly because of the park brake.
My 06 Tacoma has Drums and the 06 4 runner has rear disk.
Of course the 4 runner also has a multilink rear suspendion and the truck has leafs. Big difference in performance expectations. So of course the 4 runner Handles and stops much better but the truck holds a load better and although it does seem to require more petal pressurte to stop the Tacoma it doesn't seem to change much with a heavy load.
I consider pickup trucks to be clunky, not responsive, not as manuverable and utilitarian in nature..and I love them that way becasue that means they have not been made into a car!
By dressing it up with disc brakes it is similar to dressing up a prostitute for a dinner party. Pearls do not make a lady(and she will embarass you). Disc breaks do not make a pickup truck a sporty ride.
Of course the 4 runner also has a multilink rear suspendion and the truck has leafs. Big difference in performance expectations. So of course the 4 runner Handles and stops much better but the truck holds a load better and although it does seem to require more petal pressurte to stop the Tacoma it doesn't seem to change much with a heavy load.
I consider pickup trucks to be clunky, not responsive, not as manuverable and utilitarian in nature..and I love them that way becasue that means they have not been made into a car!
By dressing it up with disc brakes it is similar to dressing up a prostitute for a dinner party. Pearls do not make a lady(and she will embarass you). Disc breaks do not make a pickup truck a sporty ride.
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my 03 dakota has rear disks and never had a problem with them. dodge only had the dakota in rear disks for 2 years. sorry to say 4 wheel disk brakes better than disk/drum setup.
ever think about chevy is doing this to save money. drums are cheaper to produce than a disk brake system. after all they are hurting for money. sorry I like disks all the way around than drums.
the reason why big rigs and all dont have disk is because you know how much more that would cost. I have seen trailers with disk brakes for the rears and are using them overseas. in the end it comes down to costs. which is cheaper to make more of a profit.
You failed to mention the transmissions used on the vehicles. A manual transmission car will have absolutely minimum brake wear if engine braking is utilized sensibly. OTOH, you don't want to engine brake with an automatic (more wear on the transmission) so you find yourself hitting the brakes a WHOLE lot more.
sorry its an auto transmission. as its hard to find a manual in the 03 year. I think they only came with the 360 I think. but dont quote me on this.
Drums are okay, but only if they are adjusted properly which is rarely (almost never) the case. When braking forces are properly distributed then brake wear ought to be about even. I have yet to own a drum brake vehicle that didn't need adjusting every few thousand miles; usually they started out of adjustment every 3-400. The auto adjusters are a joke.
The rear rotors rot due to poor materials and construction, and, again, poor distribution of force. If they're heated up -- and of quality -- I'd imagine they'd last longer.
As to big rigs, we're still stuck with drums because of lobbyists from trucking firms and shippers/receivers. They suck. The European Union has discs in big rigs and it is working well, in adverse conditions. As is is, if someone wanted to have discs on a Class 8 American rig, they could. But they'd have to install an entirely separate air/brake system -- a duplicate -- to pass inspection. It's about someone elses profit (externalizing costs) not about the safety of your family. The rules need to be changed, and the industry needs to absorb the cost. It's about impossible to stop a really heavy (80,000#) rig in too many circumstances . . and it'll be written up as "driver error" until changes are mandated.
The rear rotors rot due to poor materials and construction, and, again, poor distribution of force. If they're heated up -- and of quality -- I'd imagine they'd last longer.
As to big rigs, we're still stuck with drums because of lobbyists from trucking firms and shippers/receivers. They suck. The European Union has discs in big rigs and it is working well, in adverse conditions. As is is, if someone wanted to have discs on a Class 8 American rig, they could. But they'd have to install an entirely separate air/brake system -- a duplicate -- to pass inspection. It's about someone elses profit (externalizing costs) not about the safety of your family. The rules need to be changed, and the industry needs to absorb the cost. It's about impossible to stop a really heavy (80,000#) rig in too many circumstances . . and it'll be written up as "driver error" until changes are mandated.
railroad trains have been using all wheel disc brakes for years now.
Until I see the braking numbers for 2007 compared to other similar 2007 trucks I will give GM the benefit of the doubt. Because this is a GM product I guess this inherently has to be some sort of problem.
I would prefer a set of drums out back in Northern climes. Road salt plays havoc with the rear disc pins. How many times have I seen a brake job done for lack of lubrication and resultant corrosion on rear discs? Too many times. And this was on vehicles that were being brought in for regularly scheduled maintenance. The problem is that the schedule was not frequent enough in most cases. Salt doesn't seem to play havoc on rear drums NEARLY as bad as discs. My Jetta got caught like that once. Wasn't cheap.
As regards heavy equipment, my understanding was that a drum system was able to absorb more heat more efficiently than a disc system at a MUCH lower expense. I expect that there are disc systems that can compete in performance but not in cost. But what do I know?
John.
As regards heavy equipment, my understanding was that a drum system was able to absorb more heat more efficiently than a disc system at a MUCH lower expense. I expect that there are disc systems that can compete in performance but not in cost. But what do I know?
John.
Actually, when the latest round of Toyota trucks came out, they switched back to drums from discs. I was reading an article about it, and in it the marketing guy said something about drums being better suited for a truck's needs. Of course, I don't remember the details of why, just that it sounded reasonable at the time....
I'll have to do some research on this one.
I'll have to do some research on this one.
Recently I had the brakes done on my 02 Silverado at about 106K miles. The fronts had to be replaced for rust but rears were good to go. Interestingly one front pad was jammed in at an agle and the pad was worn down to the metal at one end. I could not see any way this could happen other than being cocked from the factory.
For what it's worth, I found the following in wikipedia:
"... However, drum brakes are still often used for handbrakes as it has proved very difficult to design a disc brake suitable for holding a car when it is not in use. Moreover, it is very easy to fit a drum handbrake inside a disc brake so that one unit serves for both footbrake and handbrake."
"... However, drum brakes are still often used for handbrakes as it has proved very difficult to design a disc brake suitable for holding a car when it is not in use. Moreover, it is very easy to fit a drum handbrake inside a disc brake so that one unit serves for both footbrake and handbrake."
JHZR2
Staff member
My S10 ZR2 had issues similar to that with its rear discs.. due to gunked up pins, like as mentioned by Reg# 43897.
So, at that point, my generic question to everyone is... if youre using a truck not as a fashion statement, but to actually haul heavy loads/trailers, go off road, etc., wouldnt it be best to draw your analog from the heavy truck world, rather than the car world? if so, dontheavy trucks have rear drums (and often front drums too?)? If so, why is that? perhaps the answer to this whole thread can be found in looking at the right analog...
JMH
Rear disks are pure bling bling in a FWD car, and likely so in trucks that seldom if ever haul a load. I don't think the people so in love with rear disks have much facts to back them up even in trucks that are used as trucks. .
I think I found one of the quotes, again for what it's worth.
Speaking of the then new Tacoma:
"Front brakes are discs; rear brakes are, interestingly, 10-inch drums. Toyota says rear drums offer the best performance in the wet and maximum holding force when parked. Privately, execs admit that drum brakes still cost less than discs. Anti-lock with brake assist and electronic brake-force distribution are standard."
The part about the electronic brake-force distribution is interesting...
Speaking of the then new Tacoma:
"Front brakes are discs; rear brakes are, interestingly, 10-inch drums. Toyota says rear drums offer the best performance in the wet and maximum holding force when parked. Privately, execs admit that drum brakes still cost less than discs. Anti-lock with brake assist and electronic brake-force distribution are standard."
The part about the electronic brake-force distribution is interesting...
I think rear disks provide a better more consistent pedal feel. But maybe I'm just full of it...
GM has huge issues with it's brakes. They use the cheapest design and materials that money can buy. They have known about this rotor issues as much as 5 years ago when myself and another co-worker pointed it out to them. We then solved the problem with material selections that made for a more durable rotor. The executives in charge at the time decided our solution was too expensive. They then told use they were going to solve the problem by puting a hard surface coating on the parts like a nitride type coating. The executive claimed that they could do this for less then our plan. We were also the ones that broke news to them about the failure prone remote oil supply lines as well. Needless to say the brake rotors never got that special surface coating. It was supposed to gurantee 120 hours of brakeing life to the rotor and prevent corrision.
In the late 1980's early 1990's GM had the best foundry's in N. America and had spent heavily to make them so. Then GM decided that it was cheaper to simply outsource all of their casting. When this happened it was a downward spiral for their brakes. Most of the foundry's that do their work now are substandard at best and are pouring orange iron/steel. They do not maintain tight enough control's on the temp. of the materials once it leaves the cupola. Then to add insult to injury even if they do take the temp. at the pour point and find it is too low they have no convient way to dump the cold material. It is simpler to just pour it. Casting iron is super simple and as long as you have tight controls on the material make up and temp. you almost never have problems.This is why you can get a Chinesse rotor that might actualy be better then a U.S. made one. It is not technology intensive it is all about quality control.
It is very common for GM vechile to go through brake componets in a 12,000 mile period of time over and over again.Their have been countless TSB's over the years for this reoccureing problem. DC has had some issues as well and I think it is due to the same reasons that GM is haveing issues.
Drum brakes cost less and are more durable then disc brakes.They only real advantage that disc has over drum is repeatability under hard brakeing. Soon you will see drum brakes showing up on tractor trailers and the like. A detroit based company has a product that is going to revolutionize disc brakes for heavy duty applications. It will also elimanate the delay experinced with current air brake systems.
In the late 1980's early 1990's GM had the best foundry's in N. America and had spent heavily to make them so. Then GM decided that it was cheaper to simply outsource all of their casting. When this happened it was a downward spiral for their brakes. Most of the foundry's that do their work now are substandard at best and are pouring orange iron/steel. They do not maintain tight enough control's on the temp. of the materials once it leaves the cupola. Then to add insult to injury even if they do take the temp. at the pour point and find it is too low they have no convient way to dump the cold material. It is simpler to just pour it. Casting iron is super simple and as long as you have tight controls on the material make up and temp. you almost never have problems.This is why you can get a Chinesse rotor that might actualy be better then a U.S. made one. It is not technology intensive it is all about quality control.
It is very common for GM vechile to go through brake componets in a 12,000 mile period of time over and over again.Their have been countless TSB's over the years for this reoccureing problem. DC has had some issues as well and I think it is due to the same reasons that GM is haveing issues.
Drum brakes cost less and are more durable then disc brakes.They only real advantage that disc has over drum is repeatability under hard brakeing. Soon you will see drum brakes showing up on tractor trailers and the like. A detroit based company has a product that is going to revolutionize disc brakes for heavy duty applications. It will also elimanate the delay experinced with current air brake systems.
Toyota trucks have always had a load level acuated portioning valve. In a panic stop even before abs as the nose of the truck would dive and the bed would lift a portioning valve would reduce the prssure to the rear drums. This helped to reduce locking of the rear drums especialy when the truck was unloaded.
Personely I would not even bother with abs on a rear drum setup. The important thing to me about abs is that it alloys you to steer while brakeing as long as the front wheels have abs who cares about the bake.
I was taught threshold brakeing and offensive and deffense driveing so I benifitt little to nothing by adding abs. ABS is one of those technologies that should have had a huge impact on accidents and fatalities but it did nothing. People simply adapted their driveing to be more agressive.
Personely I would not even bother with abs on a rear drum setup. The important thing to me about abs is that it alloys you to steer while brakeing as long as the front wheels have abs who cares about the bake.
I was taught threshold brakeing and offensive and deffense driveing so I benifitt little to nothing by adding abs. ABS is one of those technologies that should have had a huge impact on accidents and fatalities but it did nothing. People simply adapted their driveing to be more agressive.
I'll chime in and agree with a couple of the posters; in the salt belt rear discs work more consistently than most drums if lubricated every six months. I can do it in about 10 minutes per wheel, so it's not a big deal.
On my XJ I would adjust the rear drums and within a week (6-800 miles) I would have NO REAR BRAKES! The brakes were totally new, all new hardware. I finally gave up and bought a teraflex kit, which I think is based on explorer rear discs (heresy?), but I'll tell you what it now stops like few XJ's with drums do. I'm getting some decent wear showing in the rear, which after having non-existant rear brakes is a welcome sign. I have 30's which do take more to spin up and down, so that makes bad brakes more noticable.
Our subaru wants the brakes to be lubricated all the way around every six months or they work like dookie. Holy cow those subaru brakes are good, and the newer outbacks have considerably bigger brakes.
I honestly think that most people with drum brakes, not talking BITOG people here, don't realize that their rear brakes don't work, because I think that the rear drums on most cars after a time do very little, and most people would "have them fixed" if they thought that their was a problem. It's fairly common for me to drive someone elses car and say to them, "Your brakes suck, the rears are doing nothing", and they'll say, "They seem fine to me".
I want my head to snap if I kick the pedal hard, and then I drive relatively conservatively.
On my XJ I would adjust the rear drums and within a week (6-800 miles) I would have NO REAR BRAKES! The brakes were totally new, all new hardware. I finally gave up and bought a teraflex kit, which I think is based on explorer rear discs (heresy?), but I'll tell you what it now stops like few XJ's with drums do. I'm getting some decent wear showing in the rear, which after having non-existant rear brakes is a welcome sign. I have 30's which do take more to spin up and down, so that makes bad brakes more noticable.
Our subaru wants the brakes to be lubricated all the way around every six months or they work like dookie. Holy cow those subaru brakes are good, and the newer outbacks have considerably bigger brakes.
I honestly think that most people with drum brakes, not talking BITOG people here, don't realize that their rear brakes don't work, because I think that the rear drums on most cars after a time do very little, and most people would "have them fixed" if they thought that their was a problem. It's fairly common for me to drive someone elses car and say to them, "Your brakes suck, the rears are doing nothing", and they'll say, "They seem fine to me".
I want my head to snap if I kick the pedal hard, and then I drive relatively conservatively.
I have seen some decent discussion here. but much flies in the face of my rear drum experience. I have heard that auto adjusters for the rear drums suck and don't work.. I habitually set my emergency brake and this is supposed to work to adjust the breaks. It has seemsed t work on the past two Yota trucks.. The previous one was constantly on the beach and in sand and I would get sand and salty water into the drums. Other than the occasional odd noise from mud and debris trying to get out they funstioned fine. I adjusted bias on the lifted truck and tuned the braking performance bymaking a slotted bracket to move the proportioning valve up and down as needed. I know the brakes work becasue when I am on an uneven surface with the locker dissengaged and lift a rear tire I always have a foot on the brake and the lifted tire locks up nicely.
I am niether a fan or opponent of drums. I do think that for pure stopping power big disc are the way to go. But other than the unassistecd 4 wheel drums on a old VW beetle in an emergency stop(the Delorian we hit stopped it)drums have never dissapointed me or left me wanted so long as I droive within the limitations.
The issue comes when a utility vehicle is expected to have snap neck acceleration, High G cornering abilities and the braking distance of a Miata. It is much safer if trucks are driven like trucks.
I am niether a fan or opponent of drums. I do think that for pure stopping power big disc are the way to go. But other than the unassistecd 4 wheel drums on a old VW beetle in an emergency stop(the Delorian we hit stopped it)drums have never dissapointed me or left me wanted so long as I droive within the limitations.
The issue comes when a utility vehicle is expected to have snap neck acceleration, High G cornering abilities and the braking distance of a Miata. It is much safer if trucks are driven like trucks.
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