Stop being petty and whiney and move on then.
2007 Camry 0w20 or 5w20 on filler cap
- Thread starter cdavidc1949
- Start date
- Status
Please check the blackness of your own whining pot before you go to town on my kettle. And stop sticking fingers in other members' eyes if you don't want it done to you. I tell you what -- after you've finished your 26th year of service as a Marine, and made it to the rank of O-6, then you can come tell me what's becoming a Marine and what's not.
427,
You had asked ekpolk to post the bearing clearances and oil pump specs for the VQ35. He posted back that he didn't have access to them, and I know from personal experience that Nissan FSM's are expensive. However, I do have a FSM (paid $120) for my '97 Maxima, which has the VQ30. That is why I posted the specs for it.
I still do not know why the VQ family doesn't like thinner oils (I know someone will say post proof that it doesn't, but all you have to do is ask a VQ owner, or read the many posts on here about it). I'm not smart enough to figure out if the bearing clearances have anything to do with it, but you said they don't, so I'll trust your judgement. But I do know the different recommendations for my engine in the US and Europe. As I posted above, the recommendations in the US are lower than in Europe. This strikes me as odd, so I brush off the common sense and get to figuring (which means I could be wrong, so if I am someone please enlighten me). The US has CAFE requirements. Europe does not. Nissan Europe states that 5w20 is not suitable for sustained driving, that 5w30 will positively affect fuel mileage, but 10w30 is preferable for warm and cold areas above -20*C (-4*F). Nissan USA says 5w30 is preferable in all temps, but 10w30 may be used. And Nissan Europe states that for hot areas, 20w40 and 20w50 are suitable (above -10*C, or +14*F). Considering the VQ has a record setting 12 wins in the Ward's Top Ten Engines, I would surmise that Nissan engineers know what they are doing. But I honestly can not figure out why there is such a difference in recommended viscosities between the US and Europe for the same well-engineered engine. The only conclusion I can come to is the CAFE requirements in the US. It is apparent Nissan doesn't think a thin oil is "right" for this engine, and you said it isn't the bearing clearances that would prevent a 5w20 from being used. With Nissan's statement of 5w20 is "not recommended for sustained high speed driving", I believe that thin oils just don't protect an engine at higher loads compared to a thicker oil.
Do the manufacturers that recommend a 5w20 have significantly tighter tolerances than my VQ? If they do, I can possibly understand a thinner oil being recommended. If they don't, then I believe they are recommending it to meet CAFE requirements for their "fleet". But this comes at a possible price of increased engine wear for the consumer. I say possibly, because with today's well-engineered engines, tight tolerances, and high quality oils, I don't know how significant the wear would be. Plus, here in the US, a lot of owners get rid of their car way before an engine would conceivably wear out from normal use. I believe Europe is different, as the places I had been I saw many, many older cars when compared to US highways (and remember European oil recommendations for the VQ are for heavier oils, so their lifespan may be the key factor instead of CAFE).
As for the original post, I personally would use the heaviest oil recommended. In the case of the '07 Toyota Camry, would that be the 5w20? It would be interesting to compare the bearing clearances of the 07 Corolla against say, a VQ, to see if there is a noticeable difference justifying the extremely light oil (not trying to sound condescending, just think it would be interesting and informative).
427, I didn't consider ekpolk's post to be petty or whiney, so I don't think he violated one of a Marine's basic traits of being rough men. Ek, as a former Sgt of Marines (0352/0321), I've got your back. No offense to the non-Marine members, not everyone can be one
Semper Fi,
Dave
You had asked ekpolk to post the bearing clearances and oil pump specs for the VQ35. He posted back that he didn't have access to them, and I know from personal experience that Nissan FSM's are expensive. However, I do have a FSM (paid $120) for my '97 Maxima, which has the VQ30. That is why I posted the specs for it.
I still do not know why the VQ family doesn't like thinner oils (I know someone will say post proof that it doesn't, but all you have to do is ask a VQ owner, or read the many posts on here about it). I'm not smart enough to figure out if the bearing clearances have anything to do with it, but you said they don't, so I'll trust your judgement. But I do know the different recommendations for my engine in the US and Europe. As I posted above, the recommendations in the US are lower than in Europe. This strikes me as odd, so I brush off the common sense and get to figuring (which means I could be wrong, so if I am someone please enlighten me). The US has CAFE requirements. Europe does not. Nissan Europe states that 5w20 is not suitable for sustained driving, that 5w30 will positively affect fuel mileage, but 10w30 is preferable for warm and cold areas above -20*C (-4*F). Nissan USA says 5w30 is preferable in all temps, but 10w30 may be used. And Nissan Europe states that for hot areas, 20w40 and 20w50 are suitable (above -10*C, or +14*F). Considering the VQ has a record setting 12 wins in the Ward's Top Ten Engines, I would surmise that Nissan engineers know what they are doing. But I honestly can not figure out why there is such a difference in recommended viscosities between the US and Europe for the same well-engineered engine. The only conclusion I can come to is the CAFE requirements in the US. It is apparent Nissan doesn't think a thin oil is "right" for this engine, and you said it isn't the bearing clearances that would prevent a 5w20 from being used. With Nissan's statement of 5w20 is "not recommended for sustained high speed driving", I believe that thin oils just don't protect an engine at higher loads compared to a thicker oil.
Do the manufacturers that recommend a 5w20 have significantly tighter tolerances than my VQ? If they do, I can possibly understand a thinner oil being recommended. If they don't, then I believe they are recommending it to meet CAFE requirements for their "fleet". But this comes at a possible price of increased engine wear for the consumer. I say possibly, because with today's well-engineered engines, tight tolerances, and high quality oils, I don't know how significant the wear would be. Plus, here in the US, a lot of owners get rid of their car way before an engine would conceivably wear out from normal use. I believe Europe is different, as the places I had been I saw many, many older cars when compared to US highways (and remember European oil recommendations for the VQ are for heavier oils, so their lifespan may be the key factor instead of CAFE).
As for the original post, I personally would use the heaviest oil recommended. In the case of the '07 Toyota Camry, would that be the 5w20? It would be interesting to compare the bearing clearances of the 07 Corolla against say, a VQ, to see if there is a noticeable difference justifying the extremely light oil (not trying to sound condescending, just think it would be interesting and informative).
427, I didn't consider ekpolk's post to be petty or whiney, so I don't think he violated one of a Marine's basic traits of being rough men. Ek, as a former Sgt of Marines (0352/0321), I've got your back. No offense to the non-Marine members, not everyone can be one
Semper Fi,
Dave
Ray:quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
Dave H, I don't disagree with you in the least. (very thoroughly researched and well-written argument, by the way -) But, don't be surprised if Nissan caves, too. It's sad when like-minded ("Don't confuse us with the facts, our minds are already made up.") gub'ment functionaries presume to pressure engineers to their politically correct mindset. Sadder yet when otherwise knowledgeable car owners swallow the swill, run around waving their arms, and shout, "Hallelujah - herald the dawn of the 5W-20 millennium! Surely, goodness and grace shall follow forevermore."
The emotions of the fanatics aside, it is a very interesting question. I'm watching Nissan/Infiniti carefully, as I'm a VQ owner myself. Interestingly (at least to me), with this engine, they seem to be going the other way. The current versions of the 3.5L (not sure about the VQ40 found in the trucks) have added 10w-40 to the oil spec list. On the other hand, since Nissan is selling some pretty heavy metal, that makes them much more akin to Ford with respect to CAFE pressure than they are to Honda. That makes me think they'd be looking to go to 20 wt soon too. If Nissan does go to 20 wt generally, I wonder if this engine, for whatever reason, will remain a 30/40 wt holdout. IIRC, Ford had an engine like this (the older 4.0L pushrod V-6, I think, but I could be wrong).
I didn't make any statement about thin vs thick or what is better. I just stated the fact that the recommendation is different in Europe (and almost all other places than NA). The consensus in Europe is to use a thicker (> 30wt) oil when it is necessary (towing or sustained high speed driving).
I'm a vet, where's my avatar...
Maybe when I have a few more posts thrown in...quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
Did you ask Tony for one?quote:
Originally posted by Nickdfresh:
I'm a vet, where's my avatar...
All you have to do is ask. That's the only way he will know you are a vet and want a vet avatar.quote:
Originally posted by Nickdfresh:
Maybe when I have a few more posts thrown in...quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
Did you ask Tony for one?quote:
Originally posted by Nickdfresh:
I'm a vet, where's my avatar...
Thanks, I'll do so...
One little correction Dave. 5W20 is not necessarily thicker then 0W20.
One other thing. Just because something is CAFE driven, does not mean that it will make your engine wear out too soon, or even sooner that the historical alternate did. It could mean that CAFE stimulated research to create a thinner oil that protects your engine as well as a thicker oil. As has been pointed out, there are trade-offs in the design of everything, including oil. Thinner oil does some things better than thicker oil and vice-versa. There is no simple "best" viscosity.
Yes, I offered an "olive branch" to stay on topic and discuss the technical subject at hand. But ekpolk just had to throw that "jab" in about me listing Mazda. And when I explained why I listed Mazda, he refused to move on. I call that petty and whiney. I've worked closely with Marines for many years, and it's not the type of behavior I remember.
Dave, we've heard that arguement dozens, if not hundreds of times already. And if you step back and think about for a moment it's really a lot of inferences made on a lot of weak assumptions. It's all been hashed out ad infinitum, and I don't care to repeat it again.
I stated the above bearing clearances aren't the reasons VQ engines aren't apparently "thin oil" friendly. But there could be many other reasons why they're not. A look at bearing design equations will give several more parameters we haven't even considered. And that is just the main and con bearings. There are many other parts of the engine that could influence it's preference for one grade over another. I haven't been through all the UOAs on these engines in the analysis section to see if there's a significant difference, i.e., differences above some noise level, but if there is, so be it and I'm sold.
Nickdfresh:
See Tony's post on Military Avatar's here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005573
See Tony's post on Military Avatar's here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005573
427:
My comment about you listing Mazda was in no way intended as a "jab". If you took it that way, I apologize. Frankly, in retrospect, I should have more fully explained what I meant. I was thinking, and it's just my opinion, that there are a whole lot less folks who understand that there's a close relationship between Ford and Mazda than there are people who understand which brands fall under the GM umbrella.
So anyway, here we go, you jabbing "back" and me wondering why you're jabbing in the first place (as I saw it). The sad thing is that I really can't identify anything of great substance in this thread that I disagree with you about.
Look, perhaps I'm too quick on the draw. Respectfully, I think you're insufficiently tolerant of those who don't see things the way you do. Whether I'm right or wrong about either proposition, it is beyond question that neither of us are doing anything good for BITOG by engaging in this repartee. Until very recently, my usual reaction upon seeing one of your posts has been, "hey, it's 427, this will be worth reading. . ." Frankly, I'd prefer to return to that state.
I'll stop whining (if that's what you insist on calling it
[ March 27, 2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: ekpolk ]
"IMO, the fact that some auto makers spec different grades of oil in different parts of the world doesn't prove anything in the "thin vs thick" debate."
It proves that thin oils aren't required 'for proper operation', as is often stated, since the maker is recommending thicker oils outside of the US.
It proves that thin oils aren't required 'because of clearances', as is often stated, since the same engines in many cases are being used outside of the US.
Where a range of oils is recommended outside of the US, such as in the case of Honda, they state that thinner oils are recommended for fuel economy. With other makes it's not uncommon to see that thicker oils are recommended for sustained high speeds.
It supports the case that thinner oils don't appear to do as well in outside of the US, where drains are extended compared to the US, and where sustained speeds can be higher than in the US, and where more higher performance vehicles appear to be offered than in the US. Even Ford has recommended 15W50 and 5w50 in it's very high performance vehicles in the US, which isn't surprising as other makes of similar types of vehicles appear to recommend some pretty thick stuff too.
It proves that thin oils aren't required 'for proper operation', as is often stated, since the maker is recommending thicker oils outside of the US.
It proves that thin oils aren't required 'because of clearances', as is often stated, since the same engines in many cases are being used outside of the US.
Where a range of oils is recommended outside of the US, such as in the case of Honda, they state that thinner oils are recommended for fuel economy. With other makes it's not uncommon to see that thicker oils are recommended for sustained high speeds.
It supports the case that thinner oils don't appear to do as well in outside of the US, where drains are extended compared to the US, and where sustained speeds can be higher than in the US, and where more higher performance vehicles appear to be offered than in the US. Even Ford has recommended 15W50 and 5w50 in it's very high performance vehicles in the US, which isn't surprising as other makes of similar types of vehicles appear to recommend some pretty thick stuff too.
You proved nothing. Ask anyone who replaced the 5w20 in their MDS equipped Chrysler product with thicker oil. Further, you assume all engines/accessories are identical or have the same operating parameters just because they come from the same engine family. This is a false assumption.
Again, you proved nothing. There is more to it than just clearances/tolerances. As a first step, review the bearing design equations and all the parameters involved.
Honda doesn't state that using a "thicker oil" provides any advantage. That's an assumption on your part.
Sustained high speed driving requirements are similar to extended drain intervals requirements Both require low volatility, resistance to oxidation and deposit formation, etc. It's easier and less expensive to produce a "thick" oil that meets all the above parameters especially in the case of non full synthetics. Contrary to BITGOG members, the vast majority of people will buy the least expensive oil recommended for their engine.
See above.
Engines can be designed to run a wide variety of viscosities. Manufacturers consider other parameters besides viscosity when designing an engine such as current formulation technologies, cost and availability of current formulations, and user habits and beliefs. Ford only specs thicker oils in extremely low volume production specialty vehicles that are essentially aftermarket built engines that have taken the original design way past it's original design and development parameters. In short, the thick oil is a patch for a few thousand vehicles that won't see the usual validation/verification process.
In contrast, there are quite a few high volume production high performance engines that spec a "thinner oil". These go through the full validation/verification process since the costs can be spread out over hundred of thousands of engines.
[ March 27, 2006, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
Done.quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
Shall we bury the hatchet?
IMO, the fact that some auto makers spec different grades of oil in different parts of the world doesn't prove anything in the "thin vs thick" debate.quote:
Originally posted by bar1:
I've tried to tell 427 (and others) about differences in recommended visc. in Europa for Ford and Honda engines.
The 'thin is better' crowd will not listen
Since the thread's not dead yet, might as well have some fun with this one...
Wait, don't tell me, you must be that guy Ned from the FedEx commercial -- you know, the one who's always wrong. As in the commercial, let's review:
1. I did not say that Ford "calls the shots" at Mazda. I neither know nor do I care about the precise details of the relationship between Ford and Mazda. Wrong Ned.
Now, that said, are you denying that it's a close relationship??? Take a look at www.ford.com and guess what you see -- Mazda is listed as one of the Ford brands (go see for yourself right here). Hmmmmmm, there's a hint about the relationship. Beyond that, there are a lot of Fords out there with Mazda genetics and Mazdas with Ford genetics. There are a lot of Mazdas running around with Ford engines, and so on. And surprise, surprise, virtually all of them drink 5w-20.
2. Where on earth did you get the idea that "the possibility of 5w20 oil being superior to the others never crossed [my] mind"??? Please speak for yourself. In the two years I've been a member here, I've reviewed at least 90% of the 5w-20 UOAs that have been posted. I've been reading on the stuff longer than I've been here. In fact, it's pretty obvious at this point that 5w-20 is good stuff in the engines meant to take it. So, you're wrong again.
I guess your were right about one thing -- if you're going to make unfounded statements, you should be prepared to be "called out" on them.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked