10psi/1000rpm rule and running lower viscosity oil

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RangerGress


Try and remember what Obi-wan said to Luke.

"It was the truth ..................from a certain point of view".
 
“Always keep in mind that Dr. Haas is a cosmetic plastic surgeon, not a mechanical engineer”

We need to do some more homework before making a statement as this. I am a reconstructive plastic surgeon. Yes I do an occasional cosmetic case for the money but get much more out of the more difficult cases. This is a general overview of things I have done out of a few documents:

Hand surgery: Joint replacement for arthritis, carpal tunnel syndrome, fractured and broken bones, infections, tendon injuries, nerve injuries, birth defects, replantation.
Skin surgery: Removal of skin cancers, melanoma, moles, improvement of scars, tattoo removal, skin grafting for burns, repair of bed sores and decubitus ulcers, burn reconstruction. Restoration of body parts after cancer surgery.
Breast surgery: Breast reconstruction after mastectomy either at time of surgery or many years later, breast enlargement, breast reduction for excessively large breasts, breast lifts for sagging.
Tummy Tucks: Abdominoplasty & other cosmetic surgeries. Thigh and arm lifts after weight loss. Dermolipectomy after massive weight loss.
Facial surgery: Facelifts, eyelid surgery, correction of lid lag, removing wrinkles, removing excess skin and fat from face and neck, cheek and chin implants, reconstruction after severe facial injuries from car and other accidents as GSW and explosions.
Dermabrasion: For acne, scars, and lumpy noses.
Fat suction: Liposuction of hips, thighs, buttocks, stomach, neck, cheeks. Reshaping after other reconstructive procedures.
Nose: Cosmetic surgery and surgery to correct breathing problems.
Ears: Correction of protruding ears.
Congenital: Repair of cleft lip and palate, including improvement in adults, other birth defects. Cranial reconstruction. Gender reassignment. Urology repairs.
Diabetic ulcers and ulcers of the foot: Improvement or repair of all skin ulcers.
Wound Care Center: All phases of wound care regardless of the origin. Treatment of radiation injuries. Snake bite, spider bite, crushing injuries.
General Reconstruction: Complications from vascular surgery or heart bypass surgery. Chest wall reconstruction, abdominal injuries. Reconstruction after gynecology or urology ablative procedures. Orthopaedic salvage procedures, hemipelvectomy, hip disarticulation, amputation.


As far as not knowing anything about oil and flow:
I studied many things including oil as a special project as an honor chem student in high school. Although I was just a biochemistry major in college it involved many areas. I basically had a complete chemistry, physics and biologicals education. But also took basic courses in mechanical engineering, and architecture. I had minors in food sciences (nutrition), psychology and also took a few courses off the mark as theater appreciation, et cetera. Oh, I also played men’s rugby and coached the UF womens rugby team one year.

In medical school and in general surgery training I performed research on blood flow and rheology so do not say I do not know anything about flow. You would be wrong again.

Going back to cars I have taken cars and motorcycles apart and back together many times. I raced Formula Super Vee for a short stint buy my major interests were with the frame and suspension and tires. I actually have my own wheel alignment equipment. My cars are never set to “normal” suspension parameters. This is still an area I play with a lot.

I am tired of this so live with it. I really hate it when people who do not know me start telling people what they think they know about me. Give it a rest.

aehaas
 
If one reads many of the books on engines and oil and reads many of the original articles on engines and oil and if one converses with many of the principals of some of these research articles then one may know just a little more than the average motor oil zealot. You should consider it. It does however take decades to get to this level but it is never too later to start. It is important to have a basic knowledge of the language though.

aehaas
 
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Relax, Dr. Haas. You've got a virtual Chinese menu of achievements. I wish I could have experienced your failures in the gleaning of knowledge. I'd gladly be an under achiever in your circles.


(smile and a quip)

Check your blood sugar. I get a little twitchy when mine acts up.
 
I have to get back into this I have a real good friend with a Ferrari 328 it is a real nice car I have gone on drives with it and I have never been able to get the oil temp over 210*f 85 psi . ,I am sure you would have to track it or do a 100 mile wot up hill to get the oil really hot. So instead of a 20w-50 oil a 10w-30 or 40 is used.On a track day a when the engine/oil gets real hot watching the oil pressure and oil temperatures you can get a good idea what visc oil to use . You will want an oil thick enough to protect and give you long engine life but not too thick as to waste horsepower. It is your decision on the oil viscosity for max hp or engine life,are you winning $$$ to take the risk of shorter engine life or it is a hobby and the savings of long engine life a benefit? This is the idea of what Dr Hass is getting at,picking the right viscosity for the oil temps .The mfgs.recommendations cover a wide range of operating conditions for track days the mfg recommendations is a good place to start.
 
I, for one, appreciate the effort Dr. Haas has gone through to document his considerable practical experiments on his VERY EXPENSIVE personal vehicles. The results are very logical even though they are not "factory recommended". How many of us have installed aftermarket parts that weren't recommended in the owners manual? How is this different than using a different grade oil?
Joe
 
Dr Haas: Don't forget that for every person with the digital version of "loose lips" there are many times more who read your posts with great interest... me included.

Agreement with anyone on this board isn't a requirement, of course, but I continue to hope people here will stop with the veiled (or not so veiled) insults, dismissive comments and general disrespect when someone makes a point another doesn't agree with. It seems to be happening more and more. To me, forum etiquette means not saying something I wouldn't have the guts to say to someone's face. I doubt Ken2 would have had the stones to say what he did standing in front of you. Not many people do in the real face-to-face world, or you would be rebuilding lots more faces!( : < ) I suppose it also means not making too much of occasional lapses from any one person. You need a thick skin on the web but that doesn't mean we all can't strive to be polite to each other.
 
Formula 1, the innovators of technology in racing by my book just announced that all race engines must be used for 3 events. One is expected to be able to win a race with an engine that is 3 races old against a new engine. The last 2 years required the use of one engine for 2 races.

In Formula 1 the transmissions encounter thousands of shifts per race. Combinations of soft and hard tires Must be used in each race though the teams can decide on the time period of the race when each compound is used. Engines run at 20,000 RPM and the oils used are in the range of 2W - 5W - 10W. Obviously the oils must be able to do the job and keep wear at a true minimum so that "old" engines can still have the power to win a race over a new engine. Wear does count and is kept to a minimum.

Do not be afraid of "thin" oils.

aehaas
 
i have reservations about using 20W in a car recommended for 10W-30, and i got high wear # on a 1500 mile UOA w/ 5W-30 hard driven, not even track duty.

but i really enjoyed your articles, it was the moment i finally understood the 5W, 10W- prefixes and the basics of hot oil behavior. Ranger, why don't you try different oils and do UOAs on them before jumping out there w/ 0W-20 on a track car?

If i remember correctly, his articles agreed with using 60W for track duty in his cars in hot weather.
 
I am also offended by the attack on the good doctor AEHaas. Physicians, especially highly accomplished specialists, often have an IQ of well over 140, and I suspect Dr. AEHaas IQ is well in excess of 160, which would mean he is very likely THE SMARTEST PERSON ON THIS WHOLE SITE!!! Anyone that smart can readily study and master a subject, better than an engineer who had to work hard to pass with C's. Now I really admire the person who had to work hard to get his C's. I actually happen to be a pathologist - so does that mean that no one will trust what I say about motor oil? The fact that you have doctors on this board, means that you are blessed to have people who can think critically, and who have the intelligence to dispense useful advice. If you have been following anything I've been saying recently, it's that I too, am sold on using thin oil - I'm going to be lubricating my Subaru with 5w25 Frankenmix, even though the car is under warranty and the manual calls for 5w30. Believe you me, we in medicine know full well what happens when a screw up is made - there's nothing worse than watching someone die right in front of you - and experiences like that sure do stimulate some good deep thinking. If I misdiagnose that my patient's blood is too thick - then he/she will have a stroke and end up in the morgue. Blood is a little different than oil, but the principles of flow are exactly the same.
 
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I actually happen to be a pathologist - so does that mean that no one will trust what I say about motor oil?


Only if your personal pathology is as a liar or psycho (I tried very hard but could not resist JUST KIDDING
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Outside of extreme stress, I doubt anyone needs fear thin oil. Those in doubt should test and figure that no one oil change interval is going to (typically) do any damage of any magnitude to your engine. Who cares of you experience 10,000 miles worth of wear over one 5,000 mile OCI on an engine that will (probably) have a 250-300k lifespan ..that will likely be well beyond your ownership??
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Proud user of Bruceblend® 0w Feather Weight Street Series oils. Always in style, and never in stock.

I'm Gary Allan ..and I approved this post.
 
Hi,
AEHaas - You said this;
"Do not be afraid of "thin" oils."

I'm sorry but generalisations can also be fraught with many problems

It is always very wise to know what the manufacturer has as a bottom line for the application! I for one would not defy the likes of CAT when they say certain applications require a minimum (stated) viscosity!

And I can assure you that using a 5W-40 synthetic lubricant with an HTHS vis of around 4 (minimum allowed is 3.7) in my engines that cost $50000 or so each would be the lowest viscosity spread I would be using - in my application! Arguing with an engine manufacturer about the use of an "out of spec" lubricant is useless and such use will kill Warranty claims believe me!

I have seen it many many times and in a wide variety of engine families

Likewise I know of various Porsche engines that will not survive very long on "thin" non specified lubricants

This Board's conributors have a lot of expertise. We should be mindful that not all on here are experts in the field of lubricants or engine technologies

I have always been a "thin" oil proponent - for over 50years! For instance I have used SAE20W-20 lubricants in BMC "A" series engines and VWs for almost as long - but try using such a lubricant in a BMC Mini! Or in a VW on an Autobahn at full throttle for hours on end at 30C ambient

And try using a 10W-30 HDEO in a triple road train (engine spec 15W-40) at 150 000kg GVM in a 50C ambient on a 5% gradient with a tail wind! Some engines do not survive this sort of thing very well at all!!!

Technologies move on and of course lubricants have too

However I know that there are limits and I hope readers here defer to those that know best - the engine manufacturer's recommendations - unless of course you know better...........!

Perhaps we all need to be careful of generalisations - and to respect one another as part of the BITOG community
 
Well, you surely don't want anyone doing anything blindly without thinking it out, Doug. I guess we should be mindful of what we say given the broad scope of the audience.

I surely wouldn't put my money making diesel stable on the roulette wheel and give it a spin in speculative oil selection.




Defiantly proud user of Bruceblend® 0w Feather Weight Street Series Oils. Always in style, and never in stock.
 
+1

Much of the "success" of experimentation that goes on here is the result of resilient engine design rather than the brilliance of the experimenter.
 
Originally Posted By: XS650
+1

Much of the "success" of experimentation that goes on here is the result of resilient engine design rather than the brilliance of the experimenter.



Thankful owner of a resilient engine.



Foolishly Bold user of Bruceblend® 0w Feather Weight Street Series Oils

I'm Gary Allan ..and I approved this post.
 
I just wish people would drive their cars as the manufacturer intended. I'm sure Enzo and Ferruccio are spinning in their graves, knowing some of their cars are driven as low speed commuter cars, with tri-weekly oil changes (admittedly conjecture). It's like riding a fine Arabian to-and-fro work.
 
Originally Posted By: XS650
+1

Much of the "success" of experimentation that goes on here is the result of resilient engine design rather than the brilliance of the experimenter.


I think this is the quote of the thread! We pound our chests advocating our individual version of "the gospel." We claim success with tiny changes but in reality the engine doesn't give much of a patoot. It's perfectly happy working within the margin for error the engineers gave us. Actually, the the thought of our pedantic nitpicking being almost totally irrelevant is not a comfortable one.
LOL.gif
 
since we're on a health doctor kick, motor oil is like living life.

one lives in the fast lane and races around stretched thin to win taking chances and risks
or one is overly sedate and never gets out.

personally, i've changed. going to a 0W salmon fish oil and red wine diet. should lube my cardiac arteries well. fish and drink all day.

which is more important?
some rod and crank bearing wear solved by bearing changes during the race season as needed?
excessive piston overheating and wear with potential piston melt down.

high oil flow rates are critical and not mutually occurring with maximum oil pressure

how many hearts would suffer damage at diastolic pressures above 90 mmHg for hours daily?

3500 rpm for extended periods requires an outstanding base oil and high flow rates

can a pathologist carve up an oil starved failed Beemer engine on the autopsy table?
 
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