Would any porsche A40 cut it? high reving engine used on track days (2zz-ge)

I

ivanb28

Joined
May 1, 2024
Messages
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hi guys, first of all ill introduce a bit myself. i've been reading here for a while now but never registered. this time i had to since i have a few questions i'd like to debate here hahah.
the main concern i have with oil is because i take my car to the track, and the engine is somewhat "special". it's a toyota mr2 spyder, with a 2zz-ge engine swap. for those who dont know the engine is a 1.8 with 192hp stock, being an na engine this means high rpm. it's got vvtli, which is toyota's vtec, both camshafts have two types of lobes, one for idle to 6000rpm, and the big one which takes the valvetrain up to 8250rpm. it's got a pretty narrow powerband (2250rpm) so you have to keep it there if you want to move.
current spec on my oil system is as follows:
-bigger and baffled sump to reduce oil starvation
-16 row oil cooler mounted on the side scoop
-aprox 1.3/1.5 of added oil capacity (around 6L total)

what i've been using and doing:
-meguin super leichtlauf 0w40, its supposedly the same as liqui moly synthoil but cheaper. the msds says its got around 40 to 60% of PAO. meets a40 porsche spec.
-no longer than 3500/4500km OCI, with 2 trackdays maximum. my trackdays vary from 1.5h track time to 8h. we could say that i usually try to do as many laps as possible on an open pitlane mode, which on a 4h track day would equal 50 total laps, with 18 hotlaps of around 1:53 min each aprox and the other 32 laps would be aborted or cooling laps. bear in mind hot laps are 100% pushing, video for reference for whoever is interested:


knowing this data, what would you recommend?
toyota specs 5w30 oil for this engine, while lotus says 5w40.
the car doesn't see a lot of street usage, most kilometers are covered on the highway journey to the race tracks (i don't tow it).
i don't know if i should switch to a thicker 5w40, do longer oci's, or even shorter with cheaper oil... engine seems fine after a total of 10 trackdays and 20.000km (2 years).
money is a concern since im trying to reduce costs on my track car since everything is getting so expensive nowadays and my pockets aren't big xD, so boutique oils like redline are out of the question, they are also more expensive in spain than in the states.
i'd like to know if doing a longer oci (3 track days instead of 2) with current oil would be a good idea, or if a cheaper oil meeting a40 would cut it for current oci. i've thinking on oils like:
-total quartz 9000 energy 5w40: meets a40 and 5 liters cost 25€, way cheaper than the meguin im currently using (9.5€ per litre).
-shell helix ultra 5w40: meets a40 and 5 liters cost 22€.
-mobil fs 0w40: classic, factory refill for porsche, not too expensive...

im open to suggestions but bear in mind oil market in europe is different to the one in the states!

thanks!

​

 
kschachn said:
A thick vs. thin thread?

Any oil with the Porsche approval will be fine. I would make sure it actually has the approval rather than being just a suggestion.
Click to expand...
Hmm nope not really

It’s more about oci length with cheaper/more expensive oil.
I know I don’t want a w50
how do I see the difference of approval/difference?
 
ivanb28 said:
hi guys, first of all ill introduce a bit myself. i've been reading here for a while now but never registered. this time i had to since i have a few questions i'd like to debate here hahah.
the main concern i have with oil is because i take my car to the track, and the engine is somewhat "special". it's a toyota mr2 spyder, with a 2zz-ge engine swap. for those who dont know the engine is a 1.8 with 192hp stock, being an na engine this means high rpm. it's got vvtli, which is toyota's vtec, both camshafts have two types of lobes, one for idle to 6000rpm, and the big one which takes the valvetrain up to 8250rpm. it's got a pretty narrow powerband (2250rpm) so you have to keep it there if you want to move.
current spec on my oil system is as follows:
-bigger and baffled sump to reduce oil starvation
-16 row oil cooler mounted on the side scoop
-aprox 1.3/1.5 of added oil capacity (around 6L total)

what i've been using and doing:
-meguin super leichtlauf 0w40, its supposedly the same as liqui moly synthoil but cheaper. the msds says its got around 40 to 60% of PAO. meets a40 porsche spec.
-no longer than 3500/4500km OCI, with 2 trackdays maximum. my trackdays vary from 1.5h track time to 8h. we could say that i usually try to do as many laps as possible on an open pitlane mode, which on a 4h track day would equal 50 total laps, with 18 hotlaps of around 1:53 min each aprox and the other 32 laps would be aborted or cooling laps. bear in mind hot laps are 100% pushing, video for reference for whoever is interested:


knowing this data, what would you recommend?
toyota specs 5w30 oil for this engine, while lotus says 5w40.
the car doesn't see a lot of street usage, most kilometers are covered on the highway journey to the race tracks (i don't tow it).
i don't know if i should switch to a thicker 5w40, do longer oci's, or even shorter with cheaper oil... engine seems fine after a total of 10 trackdays and 20.000km (2 years).
money is a concern since im trying to reduce costs on my track car since everything is getting so expensive nowadays and my pockets aren't big xD, so boutique oils like redline are out of the question, they are also more expensive in spain than in the states.
i'd like to know if doing a longer oci (3 track days instead of 2) with current oil would be a good idea, or if a cheaper oil meeting a40 would cut it for current oci. i've thinking on oils like:
-total quartz 9000 energy 5w40: meets a40 and 5 liters cost 25€, way cheaper than the meguin im currently using (9.5€ per litre).
-shell helix ultra 5w40: meets a40 and 5 liters cost 22€.
-mobil fs 0w40: classic, factory refill for porsche, not too expensive...

im open to suggestions but bear in mind oil market in europe is different to the one in the states!

thanks!

​

Click to expand...


Do you remember what your oil temps are like during the hot laps? That would be helpful information for those who routinely track their cars (@edyvw , @TiGeo )
 
Last edited:
ivanb28 said:
Hmm nope not really

It’s more about oci length with cheaper/more expensive oil.
I know I don’t want a w50
how do I see the difference of approval/difference?
Click to expand...
Between approved oils? You don’t. And why worry about cost when you have a nice track car like that? OCI would be one of the least of my concerns. I’d be much more interested in protecting the engine.

On the track oil temperatures are important as noted above.
 
Why do we think Toyota and Lotus spec different weight oils for the same engine?
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
Do you remember what your oil temps are like during the hot laps? That would be helpful information for those who routinely track their cars (@edyvw , @TiGeo )
Click to expand...
Oil temperature? I ran Castrol 0W40, Mobil1 0W40, Pennzoil 5W40, Motul 5W40 9Both, X-Cess, and 300V) here in CO, where the cooling the engine is much harder than in GA. You won;t make mistake with Mobil1 0W40.
That being said, IMO, you might get away with really good XW30 oil (Castrol 0W30 for example) and reduce resistance.
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
Do you remember what your oil temps are like during the hot laps? That would be helpful information for those who routinely track their cars (@edyvw , @TiGeo )
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I don’t have an oil temp gauge (don’t kill me, it’s on the to do list but it’s taking longer than expected…)

But for what it’s worth, on the same car with same engine and almost same oil (meguin 5w40), my friend told me that after two hotlaps he has to lift to cool down on the third lap since it gets up to 130 Celsius. His oil cooler was on a way worse position though, he had it on the engine bay without direct air flow.
Someone else with similar oil cooler setup (bad one) said it doesn’t go above 115 Celsius but idk which oil he uses and how many hot laps in a row he does.
 
kschachn said:
Between approved oils? You don’t. And why worry about cost when you have a nice track car like that? OCI would be one of the least of my concerns. I’d be much more interested in protecting the engine.

On the track oil temperatures are important as noted above.
Click to expand...
I meant not the actual difference between the oils, but how to notice in the oil can whether if an oil meets or just suggests a norm.

I know, I’m interested in protecting the engine that’s why I’m asking, but why would I spend more than needed? If the oil could do one more track day before changing then it’s money lost. For now I stayed on the safe zone with my oci’s, but reading here it seems like it might be overkill.
 
Zack1978 said:
Why do we think Toyota and Lotus spec different weight oils for the same engine?
Click to expand...
Maybe they expect the lotus owner to use the engine in a more spirited manner than the celica owner, i don’t really know.
 
ivanb28 said:
Unfortunately I don’t have an oil temp gauge (don’t kill me, it’s on the to do list but it’s taking longer than expected…)

But for what it’s worth, on the same car with same engine and almost same oil (meguin 5w40), my friend told me that after two hotlaps he has to lift to cool down on the third lap since it gets up to 130 Celsius. His oil cooler was on a way worse position though, he had it on the engine bay without direct air flow.
Someone else with similar oil cooler setup (bad one) said it doesn’t go above 115 Celsius but idk which oil he uses and how many hot laps in a row he does.
Click to expand...
See post #7
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
See post #7
Click to expand...
i did, from what he says it seems like mobil 1 0w40 would be my best bet.
what would be the max oil temp for such oil? around 130Cº? or that aint that bad? my guess is that anything in between 110-125Cº shouldnt be concerning, but idk if thats totally true.
 
ivanb28 said:
Unfortunately I don’t have an oil temp gauge (don’t kill me, it’s on the to do list but it’s taking longer than expected…)

But for what it’s worth, on the same car with same engine and almost same oil (meguin 5w40), my friend told me that after two hotlaps he has to lift to cool down on the third lap since it gets up to 130 Celsius. His oil cooler was on a way worse position though, he had it on the engine bay without direct air flow.
ivanb28 said:
i did, from what he says it seems like mobil 1 0w40 would be my best bet.
what would be the max oil temp for such oil? around 130Cº? or that aint that bad? my guess is that anything in between 110-125Cº shouldnt be concerning, but idk if thats totally true.
Click to expand...

Someone else with similar oil cooler setup (bad one) said it doesn’t go above 115 Celsius but idk which oil he uses and how many hot laps in a row he does.
Click to expand...
Several things:
1. I ran specifically Mobil 0W40 at 150c. That was before I installed radiator type oil cooler. I ran that batch for 5k. BMW N54 engine for example (mine is N52, cuts it at 150c) will run oil above 150c before cut it off (160c).
2. The name of the game is HTHS (google it) not grade per se. HTHS is measured at 150c and it is better determinant how oil will perform at higher temperatures, pressure. Higher HTHS, less possibility for viscosity “breakdown.” But, you don’t want to go crazy on it. Higher HTHS=more resistance =less hp=more heat.
Stick to oils that have MB229.5 approval.
3. Is your oil cooler fluid type heat exchanger (coolant/oil)? Or radiator type?
If you don’t have radiator type, that is a problem considering your time on the track.
4. Is your coolant diluted to around 10% of coolant concentrate? You don’t want 50/50%! More coolant concentrate, less distilled water=less efficient heat exchange with environment.
5. I will mention this, just because, but is all under the hood cowling removed?
 
edyvw said:
Several things:
1. I ran specifically Mobil 0W40 at 150c. That was before I installed radiator type oil cooler. I ran that batch for 5k. BMW N54 engine for example (mine is N52, cuts it at 150c) will run oil above 150c before cut it off (160c).
2. The name of the game is HTHS (google it) not grade per se. HTHS is measured at 150c and it is better determinant how oil will perform at higher temperatures, pressure. Higher HTHS, less possibility for viscosity “breakdown.” But, you don’t want to go crazy on it. Higher HTHS=more resistance =less hp=more heat.
Stick to oils that have MB229.5 approval.
3. Is your oil cooler fluid type heat exchanger (coolant/oil)? Or radiator type?
If you don’t have radiator type, that is a problem considering your time on the track.
4. Is your coolant diluted to around 10% of coolant concentrate? You don’t want 50/50%! More coolant concentrate, less distilled water=less efficient heat exchange with environment.
5. I will mention this, just because, but is all under the hood cowling removed?
Click to expand...
1. interesting, did you do any UOA on that oil? does it suffer a lot of breakdown?
2. m1 0w40 has a 3.6 hths. as far as i know, racing oriented oils tend to have at least a hths of 4 in w40 grades. what do you think about that?
now that we are talking about hths, what do you think about HDEO use on these kind of applications? they seem to have a higher hths. the fact that they are meant for heavy diesel engines which operate at low rpms makes me hesitate though.
3. i have both. in the oil filter assembly there's a heat exchanger with the coolant. then, in the engine bay right side scoop, i have a 16 row oil cooler radiator, picture of my setup here:
4. i have a 50/50 mix tbh. never had any issue with coolant temps in this car, since its a mid engine the coolant system is pretty big (10.5 liters), so they don't suffer from overheating it.
5. what's the hood cowling?
 
ivanb28 said:
1. interesting, did you do any UOA on that oil? does it suffer a lot of breakdown?
2. m1 0w40 has a 3.6 hths. as far as i know, racing oriented oils tend to have at least a hths of 4 in w40 grades. what do you think about that?
now that we are talking about hths, what do you think about HDEO use on these kind of applications? they seem to have a higher hths. the fact that they are meant for heavy diesel engines which operate at low rpms makes me hesitate though.
3. i have both. in the oil filter assembly there's a heat exchanger with the coolant. then, in the engine bay right side scoop, i have a 16 row oil cooler radiator, picture of my setup here:
4. i have a 50/50 mix tbh. never had any issue with coolant temps in this car, since its a mid engine the coolant system is pretty big (10.5 liters), so they don't suffer from overheating it.
5. what's the hood cowling?
Click to expand...
OK, I missed some stuff in opening thread as I was reading on the phone.

So, first things first:
1. You don't have an oil temperature problem! Your setup is stout enough for that altitude. I know it can get hot in the summer there, but 730m over sea level is still below 1km, where things start to get really interesting.
2. I personally would go Mobil1 0W40, SHell Helix 5W440, Motul X-Cess 5W40 (this one has HTHS 3.8). Any oil that is approved for MB229.5 and Porsche A40. You could go Motul 300V if you really want to be safe, but I don;t think it is necessary.

Second,

I personally would still go 10% coolant concentrate. Reason is that as you know on track everything matters, regardless how small is. You still have fluid heat exchanger and coolant will be able to absorb more heat from oil if it is diluted. Audi actually says in S4 manual to dilute coolant if vehicle is tracked.
As for oil temperature, keep in mind that 110-125c is very, VERY normal street temperature. Oil cooler thermostat on my BMW (I did not see on your setup thermostat) is at 110c. On M3 it is at 116c. I would say oil temperature gauge is imperative, just so you know where you at.

As for my UOA of oils I used, this is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 (Shell Helix) and Motul X-Cess 5W40. Both with track time, and sessions as 1 1/2hrs long, oil temperature around 125-135c:

Pennzoil:

Shell-PPE 5W40-328.jpg


Shell-Motul 5W40-328.jpg
 
So this one is very interesting. This is UOA of Castrol 0W30 (right column, one with 4,600mls on oil) and Castrol 0W40 (left column, one with 5,000mls on oil).
0W40 had track use. Very hard track use! It was summer, very hot, 32-35c, and more importantly, at 1.55km altitude (altitude is far more challenging than ambient temperature. However, combine both, and it is really hard on engine). That oil has seen sessions 1 1/2hrs long at that heat, with oil temperature going 135-140c. 0W30 did not have any track time. It lived winter life, very tough one. I use BMW also as daily, and go to ski and I do drive it like I stole it. As you can see, no real difference in wear.
Catsrol 0W30:40 UOA.jpg
 
@edyvw
really interesting results! seems like track use isn't harming your oil in any way.
edyvw said:
That oil has seen sessions 1 1/2hrs long
Click to expand...
what do you mean exactly with this? what's the total track time for those UOAs?

you are right i should get an oil temp gauge to know where im at, maybe im looking for a trouble that doesn't exist. didn't know these kind of "cheap" oils were good enough to widstand temperatures above 135ºC reliably. i'll think about the coolant mix for next oil change as well, might make sense to do that as well.
out of those 3 that you mentioned, hths goes as follows:
-mobil 1 fs 0w40: 3.6 hths, around 20 to 40% of PAO according to their msds, the rest GTL.
-x cess: 3.7 hths, as far as i know it's all HC
-shell helix ultra 5w40: couldn't find the hths, all i know is that it's got a lot of GTL.

these 3 all meet A40 and mb229.5 (may i know why is this norm a reference point?)
considering cost, the m1 is the most expensive, i'd like to get 3 trackdays per OCI (4500 street kilometers max) with it. with the other two i could maintain current OCI since they are cheaper (there's an offer right now for the shell, 5 liters for 25€).
edyvw said:
By the way, since you are in Spain, this look interesting. I always liked Repsol:
Click to expand...
i had an eye on that one since it came out, but couldnt find a 5 liter can anywhere. it's only sold in 1 liter cans, and it's pretty expensive (around 16€).
 
I do not have the time atm to go thru all the comments, so sorry if this repeats anything. I would have the oil tested to find out how its holding up and go from there. yes that costs money, but can save you in the long run. I would lean to an A40 5w40 given the use off the cuff.
 
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