used oil better than new?
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MolaKule
Staff member
I was layed off, moved, got a new primary job, had two new grandkids, got layed off again, and now back as a consultant/contractor.
Mostly visiting the grandkids during my (forced) vacation.
I think I'll remain a consultant/contractor since the jobs are more interesting and I will have more time with the grandkids and my new hobby.
Mostly visiting the grandkids during my (forced) vacation.
I think I'll remain a consultant/contractor since the jobs are more interesting and I will have more time with the grandkids and my new hobby.
Err, newbie here ,
have some questions and hypotesises :
1)
Does artificially lowering the ZDDP levels of a certain oil after a high zddp PAO oil used contribute to lowered wear as the zddp tribofilm is already built up on the previous film and the new amount of oil's ZDDP is lowered , hence lowering the ZDDP "scruffing" occuring ?
example being MX4T (1400-1600PPM ZDDP) as first oil to establish "thick" ZDDP layering and MX4T + MOBIL 0W40 API SM oil 1:1 mix (1100-1300 PPM ZDDP )as 2nd oil change ?
2)(motorcycle related) Does a 6000-9000 RPM (working range) scooter with no shared sumps and no oil filter benefit from "better used oil" or 2000 KM factory recommended oil changes? I drive my scooter quite hard in 25-35 degree summer temps and usually change within 1200KM's , usually in the 800-1000KM range , factory recommended weight is 20W40 but i use a 5W40/10W40 ( MOTUL 300V ,MX4T) .
Oil change intervals vary form 3 weeks to 3 months.
3)
Any nice recommendations for a hi revving scooter setup? Sunruh's 15W50 mobil silver cap dumbs down the scooter too much , the MX4T works great at 9 USD per quart , any better recommendations? AMSOIL MCF is quite expensive (12 + USD per quart) and troublesome (6 bottles at a go per box) to order in Taiwan.
have some questions and hypotesises :
1)
Does artificially lowering the ZDDP levels of a certain oil after a high zddp PAO oil used contribute to lowered wear as the zddp tribofilm is already built up on the previous film and the new amount of oil's ZDDP is lowered , hence lowering the ZDDP "scruffing" occuring ?
example being MX4T (1400-1600PPM ZDDP) as first oil to establish "thick" ZDDP layering and MX4T + MOBIL 0W40 API SM oil 1:1 mix (1100-1300 PPM ZDDP )as 2nd oil change ?
2)(motorcycle related) Does a 6000-9000 RPM (working range) scooter with no shared sumps and no oil filter benefit from "better used oil" or 2000 KM factory recommended oil changes? I drive my scooter quite hard in 25-35 degree summer temps and usually change within 1200KM's , usually in the 800-1000KM range , factory recommended weight is 20W40 but i use a 5W40/10W40 ( MOTUL 300V ,MX4T) .
Oil change intervals vary form 3 weeks to 3 months.
3)
Any nice recommendations for a hi revving scooter setup? Sunruh's 15W50 mobil silver cap dumbs down the scooter too much , the MX4T works great at 9 USD per quart , any better recommendations? AMSOIL MCF is quite expensive (12 + USD per quart) and troublesome (6 bottles at a go per box) to order in Taiwan.
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Or, this majoring isn't additive related. I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
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Originally Posted By: Pontual
Or, this majoring isn't additive related. I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
You do know this thread is 6 years old right
Or, this majoring isn't additive related. I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
You do know this thread is 6 years old right
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Or, this majoring isn't additive related. I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
The only thing that is going to be made is oxidized oil which eventually leads to some sludge.
An ester can only made with the correct molar ratio of reactants and catalysts.
Or, this majoring isn't additive related. I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
The only thing that is going to be made is oxidized oil which eventually leads to some sludge.
An ester can only made with the correct molar ratio of reactants and catalysts.
MolaKule
Staff member
Possibly you are confusing "polymerization" of oxidized oils with esterification?
No, IMO you make some kind of ester oil by mixing alcohol and acid, under heat. Sure, there are hundreds of ester types, one of them is made this way. If you want POE you need the right ingredients, of course. And sludge is another case. So why its better a 3k miles oil than a 100 miles one? Doesn't look anybody answered that in 6 years.
Yes, I know, and ?
Originally Posted By: Pontual
No, IMO you make some kind of ester oil by mixing alcohol and acid, under heat. Sure, there are hundreds of ester types, one of them is made this way. If you want POE you need the right ingredients, of course. And sludge is another case. So why its better a 3k miles oil than a 100 miles one?
Listen to Molakule, he's a scientist, and doesn't have to rely on fanciful opinion, where somehow a magical reaction makes a better base-stock.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Doesn't look anybody answered that in 6 years.
As to the article in question, it's been flogged to death, in multiple threads.
No, IMO you make some kind of ester oil by mixing alcohol and acid, under heat. Sure, there are hundreds of ester types, one of them is made this way. If you want POE you need the right ingredients, of course. And sludge is another case. So why its better a 3k miles oil than a 100 miles one?
Listen to Molakule, he's a scientist, and doesn't have to rely on fanciful opinion, where somehow a magical reaction makes a better base-stock.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Doesn't look anybody answered that in 6 years.
As to the article in question, it's been flogged to death, in multiple threads.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
No, IMO you make some kind of ester oil by mixing alcohol and acid, under heat.
You either can do it, or you can't. If you think you can, devise the experiment, conduct it, and inform us of the results.
No, IMO you make some kind of ester oil by mixing alcohol and acid, under heat.
You either can do it, or you can't. If you think you can, devise the experiment, conduct it, and inform us of the results.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
What some doesn't understand, appart from Garak maybe, is that I'm not affirming that this happens, I just brought some ideas to try to explain a thing that wasn't explained at all. Odd thing that older oil is better than new oil. Esterification could be the case. I'm not commited to prove anything, as most on the board aren't.
Can I give an oppinion on an esquisite phenomena, please?
I see that maybe the ethanol in fuel could make ester in sump. There you have alcohol, heat and acid. And so the ester could be accidentally formed making a temporary better base oil ...
Anyway, the TBN are remaning higher for a longer time, nowadays ...
What some doesn't understand, appart from Garak maybe, is that I'm not affirming that this happens, I just brought some ideas to try to explain a thing that wasn't explained at all. Odd thing that older oil is better than new oil. Esterification could be the case. I'm not commited to prove anything, as most on the board aren't.
Can I give an oppinion on an esquisite phenomena, please?
Molakule, the most chemically literate member suggested that the process you described is extraordinarily unlikely, and sludge the most likely outcome.
An opinion should be based on something backing it, rather than a vague description of the manufacture of esters and how that MAY occur in the sump.
An opinion should be based on something backing it, rather than a vague description of the manufacture of esters and how that MAY occur in the sump.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Molakule, the most chemically literate member suggested that the process you described is extraordinarily unlikely, and sludge the most likely outcome.
An opinion should be based on something backing it, rather than a vague description of the manufacture of esters and how that MAY occur in the sump.
Ow, my, to give an oppinion, now I should provide a PHD on chemistry?!
BTW, Can you provide some reseamblance of evidence on your sentence that ethanol in fuel will make more sludge? Can you back this up? Or are you already sorry to have said that?
Molakule, the most chemically literate member suggested that the process you described is extraordinarily unlikely, and sludge the most likely outcome.
An opinion should be based on something backing it, rather than a vague description of the manufacture of esters and how that MAY occur in the sump.
Ow, my, to give an oppinion, now I should provide a PHD on chemistry?!
BTW, Can you provide some reseamblance of evidence on your sentence that ethanol in fuel will make more sludge? Can you back this up? Or are you already sorry to have said that?
I'd just ascribe any such idea as basically that oil is a lot better than we give it credit for, Pontual. The oil is always a balancing act from the start of its use to the end of the life cycle.
Guys like Mola are just doing their jobs well, rather than having accidentally discovered the tribological version of penicillin or radium. The ICE is just too varied from one operator to another, let alone one application to another, to be hopeful on that front. Heck, they can't even depend on all users getting enough temperature into the oil to use the heat activated additives.
N Rays, maybe, eh Mola?
Guys like Mola are just doing their jobs well, rather than having accidentally discovered the tribological version of penicillin or radium. The ICE is just too varied from one operator to another, let alone one application to another, to be hopeful on that front. Heck, they can't even depend on all users getting enough temperature into the oil to use the heat activated additives.
N Rays, maybe, eh Mola?
I think (part of) the reason fresh oil shows high wear in UOA compared to full OCI is because you don't start from 0.
In a sump taking 3-4 quarts per fill, there's easily a half quart of used oil left. the used oil has on average 50ppm iron, and anywhere between 5 and 10 PPM of lead, copper etc...
So your fresh fill could end up starting with 10 PPM iron in it already, and 1-2 PPM of the other wear metals.
Often there are also trace amounts of metals found in VOA, are thosereally there or is this showing the margi oferror in oil analysis? These could add another 1 PPM of wear metals in the mix.
In a sump taking 3-4 quarts per fill, there's easily a half quart of used oil left. the used oil has on average 50ppm iron, and anywhere between 5 and 10 PPM of lead, copper etc...
So your fresh fill could end up starting with 10 PPM iron in it already, and 1-2 PPM of the other wear metals.
Often there are also trace amounts of metals found in VOA, are thosereally there or is this showing the margi oferror in oil analysis? These could add another 1 PPM of wear metals in the mix.
Ok, at least Garak and Jetronic came up with ideas, not just criticism ... and that is the spirit!
Originally Posted By: Pontual
BTW, Can you provide some reseamblance of evidence on your sentence that ethanol in fuel will make more sludge? Can you back this up? Or are you already sorry to have said that?
Wake up to yourself, you presented a fairy tale scenario where esters are created in the sump, Molakule stated that reactions were more likely to create sludge than esters.
My statement was not that ethanol (yes I know the you are a fan) creates sludge.
As I've pointed out already, this particular paper has been discussed and discussed multiple times (and YES, in the last 6 years).
The gist was that the additives are added in very succinct form, and through the action of friction and heat, create more reactive species that provide reduced friction...in the pin and disk test rig that the paper uses.
BTW, Can you provide some reseamblance of evidence on your sentence that ethanol in fuel will make more sludge? Can you back this up? Or are you already sorry to have said that?
Wake up to yourself, you presented a fairy tale scenario where esters are created in the sump, Molakule stated that reactions were more likely to create sludge than esters.
My statement was not that ethanol (yes I know the you are a fan) creates sludge.
As I've pointed out already, this particular paper has been discussed and discussed multiple times (and YES, in the last 6 years).
The gist was that the additives are added in very succinct form, and through the action of friction and heat, create more reactive species that provide reduced friction...in the pin and disk test rig that the paper uses.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
...Often there are also trace amounts of metals found in VOA, are those really there or is this showing the margi oferror in oil analysis? These could add another 1 PPM of wear metals in the mix.
The trace metals found in VOA's are from individual components in the additive chemistries.
For example, the 1-3 ppm of iron and aluminum in VOA's are not from rusty drums, they are from the Anti-Oxidants, anti-corrosion, and metal inhibitors, that react with ferrous and non-ferrous metals to protect them.
...Often there are also trace amounts of metals found in VOA, are those really there or is this showing the margi oferror in oil analysis? These could add another 1 PPM of wear metals in the mix.
The trace metals found in VOA's are from individual components in the additive chemistries.
For example, the 1-3 ppm of iron and aluminum in VOA's are not from rusty drums, they are from the Anti-Oxidants, anti-corrosion, and metal inhibitors, that react with ferrous and non-ferrous metals to protect them.
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