Old house questions (part 2)

[Nick R]

Been a bit over a month since I moved into this house, and thought I'd ask a few questions that I've been wondering about.

First of all, I had worried initially there might be knob and tube considering the age of the house. There is one little bit of it in the basement, but the landlord assures me it is dead. He reached up and grabbed the wires at one point to prove it as well.

Almost all of the wiring appears to have been updated at some point, ~85% of it is older BX Armored Steel conduit. Our circuit breaker is newer, no idea when it was put in, but they used romex for the new kitchen, as best I can tell the outlet where the washer and dryer is, and a couple of others.

I was concered about asbestos, and my concerns would seem to be validated by the method of encapsulation used.

(yes this is the dryer vent hose, that is now vented properly outside)

Someone came along and wrapped all the asbestos insulation with duct tape in most places, a few places they just stapled a tarp up over it. I know this isn't exactly the proper method, but noone is going to be down there to screw with it, so I'm not too concerned.

Next up, our boiler.
It's definitely an older model, but I'm not able to find much information out about this company. Republic Boiler appears to be the manufacturer, but I can't find any information on year.

Apparently it went out 7 years ago and had to be repaired, so has newer gas stuff inside. It works quite well, it can't quite keep up with a drafty old house when it was like last night (-10f, and 40mph winds) but it keeps the house warm, it has a reassuring rumble when it's running.

One thing that does slightly concern me is this

I asked someone I know who does boilers, who says that is definitely the old style, and as long as there is a proper draft when running, shouldn't pose a problem. Now, we do have a CO detector at the bottom of the basement steps and it has never gone off, so we aren't too worried, but I thought it was strange. Note, it's also plumbed into the old chimney. When the boiler was put in they bricked up the fireplace and sealed/lined the inside of the existing chimney. We do have CO detectors in every bedroom too, just in case. They did the same thing in the back corner with the hot water heater, with the other chimney.

That chimney though, also is connected to something quite cool
1920 or earlier, as best I can tell.

The support beams and joists are in great shape, and as you'd expect from a house of this vintage, are great big things, not the wimpy joists you see in newer homes.

Gas and electric meters are new

There is also this, which I can't come up with any explanation for except maybe a heater or oven?

 

[53' Stude]

The last pic looks like a coal fired bread oven or oven.

 

[Vern_in_IL]

Looks like full dimensional lumber!!

 

[Delta]

If that basement could talk... Looks like an odd assortment of wiring over the years. Definitely not the way I would have arranged things, code states around here you can only run wires top or bottom, not the sides. I wouldn't put too much faith in the landlords way of proving the K&T is disconnected. A simple non-contact tester could prove otherwise. Isn't it a bigger two story house? Sure looks like very little circuits, and I see what looks like a couple old wires going in the top of the box.

Whoever wrapped the asbestos with duct-tape should have left well enough alone. The code enforcement guy would have flipped a brick if they knew that happened. I couldn't tell you much about gas boilers, but smart move on the CO detectors. I recommend renters insurance.

 

[eljefino]

I hear lots of places you shouldn't connect galvanized stove pipe to a wood (coal?) cookstove as the zinc makes you nutters when it gets hot.

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

That kitchen stove is a find! That is a duel fuel stove. New price is $6000 to $10,000.
Check it out here.
$900 to $1600 on Ebay.

 

[abycat]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I hear lots of places you shouldn't connect galvanized stove pipe to a wood (coal?) cookstove as the zinc makes you nutters when it gets hot.


you are very right! galvanised is only for dryer and fresh air intakes.

 

[demarpaint]

Is that BX and Romex cable going into the electric panel? If so that's a no no in these parts. The asbestos, another DIY horror show. The floor joists are full dimension lumber, typical of older homes.

As long as you leave the asbestos alone and stay out of the basement you'll be fine. When the owner goes to sell the house depending on codes the electric and asbestos will become problems with an engineer inspection, with a slew of other items I'd bet.

 

[JustinH]

Looks exactly like the duplex I owned in Buffalo, NY.

Mine was built in 1920 I think as well.

Mine was converted from single family home to duplex with dual utility meters.

A couple comments.

Mine had that boiler setup for heat, it was converted to forced air 80% heat. When they did that, the "higher efficiency" furnace was plumbed into the clay lined chimney.

It threw a bunch of water vapor into the chimney, and the chimney was falling apart in several locations.

I dumped the house before we got into repairing that animal, or putting a 40 foot liner in the chimney.

Mine had the same asbestos water piping in place. We just left it alone. Ours was covered with spray paint, so that the asbestos didn't get airborne. Don't touch it, don't mess with it.

The big problem we had was water in the basement. No sump pump, just natural drain. Water would come up through the basement floor and we couldn't control it without shelling out $$$.

We got a good amount of the water issues fixed by doing a couple things. We replaced the rotten 100 year old WOOD frame basement windows with glass block, with sliding screen vents. Keep those open any time you aren't running the furnace, and it will drop the humidity levels like a rock in the basement.

We also redid the YANKEE gutters on the house, relined them with rubber, and ran the gutter to the storm sewer (this was how most houses do it in my old neighborhood).

Regarding your basement. The breaker box does not look new, and I wonder why it doesn't have a door cover on the front of it. At least it is not glass fuses, so it must be less than 25 years old.

The exhaust gasses from the boiler venting directly in the basement. Yeah, that would worry me. Have a couple CO detectors in good working order, you shouldn't die.

Be advised of this. In my neighborhood, a little girl had a sleepover. The girls slept in the basement, and one of the girls died of CO poisoning overnight. I'm certain they had a boiler setup similar to yours.

If you have money to replace that unit, replace it with forced air, and vent it to the outside with PCV pipe. Don't use the chimney without a liner.

As for weird stuff. Someone had put up a metal shower stall in my basement. No venting no nothing. Just a hot water faucet in the ceiling of the basement, and a drain in the concrete floor. Yeah we didn't use that thing. Mold city.

My brother is a realtor, he told me a house he was showing in my neighborhood had a 1970's gas water heater with no duct work exhaust at all. Just running in the basement, and they left the window open to vent it to the outside. Yeah, no thanks.

 

[silveravant]

If the boiler has trouble keeping the house warm at low temperatures check the setting of the aquastat. It can be as high as about 190 degrees when cold. When milder it can be turned down to about 170 degrees to save energy. Just be sure that the return water temperature stays above 130 deg. to prevent condensation in the boiler.

 

[JC1]

Here's the site for you.

http://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Asbestos_Identification.php

 

[Mr Nice]

Why rent such an old house with soooo many problems ?

 

[Wolf359]

Never heard of not mixing Romex with BX and I've probably been on 100+ home inspections and I see that all the time, maybe that's a state thing. You can kinda tell that the Romex was a DIY type job, you don't use zip ties, you're supposed to nail it ever 18 inches. Always easy to tell a pro job from a DIY from how sloppy things are. You should get a tester for the knob and tube, they did weird things back in the day like separating out the hot and common wires so the ones that appear dead might just be the common wires and not the hot ones. If you're a tenant, it's not really your problem though. Insurance companies don't like it because they feel it's more of a fire hazard, but knob and tube doesn't really cause that many fires. But that would just be a problem for the landlord. As someone else said, just make sure your renter's insurance is paid up.

I don't really have a big problem with the asbestos although ideally you're just supposed to leave it alone to avoid making any fibers airborne. The removal cost these days is actually pretty low, some people think it costs thousands and thousands, but from the amount I see, my guess would be in the $1000 range or less.

Gas meters typically belong to the gas company and they like to change them out every 7 years.

As for your boiler, if you're really worried about it, take it down to the building department and ask the plumbing inspector what he thinks about it. Or if you want to be nice, ask the landlord if that's really ok and that you might get a second opinion from the plumbing inspector. I'm a little suspicious of anyone who grabs an electrical wire to prove that it's dead. You always use a tester.

 

[GMFan]

The BX and older style cloth insulated wires going to the panel look original or at least 30 years old. Those are most likely a combination of original or added during a renovation back in the day. Someone pulled out what was probably an old screw-in fuse panel and put in that modern breaker panel. Those yellow romex cables (Which look like they were installed by a 12 yr old) were added on later....likely when the panel was installed. It's also a tell-tale sign a weekend warrior did the wiring since they went in through the side knockouts of the panel rather than coming in through the top and using the gutter space. That's just plain lazy and poor craftsmanship. At least they used the romex cable clamps when entering the panel...

Follow the K+T wiring...does it terminate in the panel? If not, it's likely dead. See if you can find where the destination and source is from. Again, it's pretty lazy to just leave abandoned circuiting like that.

Don't worry about electrical wiring with the older style insulation..it's fine as long as it isn't disturbed or shows signs of damage. That BX will last until we're all dead and gone.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Why rent such an old house with soooo many problems ?


I'm guessing you've always lived in Florida?

All of that stuff looks typical in older rentals. The landlords find a handyman to do stuff or do it themselves and nurse everything along as long as they can. You have a CO2 detector, as mentioned above I'd follow the K&T to see if it's spliced into the BX or romex anywhere and not worry about it any more. You're just renting, not buying the place.

 

[eljefino]

Thing is, when the wind is howling, that's the sort of building I'd want to be in, not some new junker.

 

[Mr Nice]

dishdude,

I've lived in a few states. I aways avoided older buildings when I had to rent.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
dishdude,

I've lived in a few states. I aways avoided older buildings when I had to rent.


Newer states? In AZ, it's easy to avoid older buildings. In the Northeast if you want to be in an urban area and close to campus or work there is nothing but older building to choose from unless you want your commute to be over an hour.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
dishdude,

I've lived in a few states. I aways avoided older buildings when I had to rent.


Newer states? In AZ, it's easy to avoid older buildings. In the Northeast if you want to be in an urban area and close to campus or work there is nothing but older building to choose from unless you want your commute to be over an hour.


Exactly. I'm co-renting with 4 other friends that I've known for years, right in downtown Albany. Not in the first wave of construction in the area, that is all the old row-houses in downtown. I'm in the "2nd wave" right around 1900 (1901 in our case) so single family homes that are air-gapped with the neighbors. The price is right, and it's a great location. I'm a stones throw from Empire state plaza, and a 5 minute walk to bars and grocery store. There aren't any newer homes for rent anywhere near downtown, and the ones that are are faaaaaar more expensive.



Originally Posted By: eljefino
Thing is, when the wind is howling, that's the sort of building I'd want to be in, not some new junker.

I largely agree, other than the original windows which don't exactly seal properly anymore, even with storm windows, and doors which don't seal properly. We've done the best we realistically can, but otherwise yes. These old houses were certainly built solidly.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is that BX and Romex cable going into the electric panel? If so that's a no no in these parts. The asbestos, another DIY horror show. The floor joists are full dimension lumber, typical of older homes.

As long as you leave the asbestos alone and stay out of the basement you'll be fine. When the owner goes to sell the house depending on codes the electric and asbestos will become problems with an engineer inspection, with a slew of other items I'd bet.


Yes, the BX and Romex both go into the panel.
Originally Posted By: GMFan
The BX and older style cloth insulated wires going to the panel look original or at least 30 years old. Those are most likely a combination of original or added during a renovation back in the day. Someone pulled out what was probably an old screw-in fuse panel and put in that modern breaker panel. Those yellow romex cables (Which look like they were installed by a 12 yr old) were added on later....likely when the panel was installed. It's also a tell-tale sign a weekend warrior did the wiring since they went in through the side knockouts of the panel rather than coming in through the top and using the gutter space. That's just plain lazy and poor craftsmanship. At least they used the romex cable clamps when entering the panel...

Follow the K+T wiring...does it terminate in the panel? If not, it's likely dead. See if you can find where the destination and source is from. Again, it's pretty lazy to just leave abandoned circuiting like that.

Don't worry about electrical wiring with the older style insulation..it's fine as long as it isn't disturbed or shows signs of damage. That BX will last until we're all dead and gone.


As best as I can tell, the knob and tube is original, and the BX was likely installed sometime between 1940 and 1960 or so, and the romex and new panel were more recent. (There is a door on the panel, it's just open perfectly so you can't really see it unless you look closely).
Someone wrapped all the steam pipe insulation with duct tape, except for the few spots with plastic or bare. It doesn't really worry me too much, since none of us are messing with it.

Originally Posted By: silveravant
If the boiler has trouble keeping the house warm at low temperatures check the setting of the aquastat. It can be as high as about 190 degrees when cold. When milder it can be turned down to about 170 degrees to save energy. Just be sure that the return water temperature stays above 130 deg. to prevent condensation in the boiler.


I was wondering about this. My IR thermometer shows our rads hit about 135 or so, and this morning I went into the basement and looked at the temp and pressure gauge on the boiler, it said 130. So I guess it's set low? I don't know how I'd go about setting it higher, or if maybe it was set that low for a reason?
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Looks exactly like the duplex I owned in Buffalo, NY.

Mine was built in 1920 I think as well.

Mine was converted from single family home to duplex with dual utility meters.

A couple comments.

Mine had that boiler setup for heat, it was converted to forced air 80% heat. When they did that, the "higher efficiency" furnace was plumbed into the clay lined chimney.

It threw a bunch of water vapor into the chimney, and the chimney was falling apart in several locations.

I dumped the house before we got into repairing that animal, or putting a 40 foot liner in the chimney.

Mine had the same asbestos water piping in place. We just left it alone. Ours was covered with spray paint, so that the asbestos didn't get airborne. Don't touch it, don't mess with it.

The big problem we had was water in the basement. No sump pump, just natural drain. Water would come up through the basement floor and we couldn't control it without shelling out $$$.

We got a good amount of the water issues fixed by doing a couple things. We replaced the rotten 100 year old WOOD frame basement windows with glass block, with sliding screen vents. Keep those open any time you aren't running the furnace, and it will drop the humidity levels like a rock in the basement.

We also redid the YANKEE gutters on the house, relined them with rubber, and ran the gutter to the storm sewer (this was how most houses do it in my old neighborhood).

Regarding your basement. The breaker box does not look new, and I wonder why it doesn't have a door cover on the front of it. At least it is not glass fuses, so it must be less than 25 years old.

The exhaust gasses from the boiler venting directly in the basement. Yeah, that would worry me. Have a couple CO detectors in good working order, you shouldn't die.

Be advised of this. In my neighborhood, a little girl had a sleepover. The girls slept in the basement, and one of the girls died of CO poisoning overnight. I'm certain they had a boiler setup similar to yours.

If you have money to replace that unit, replace it with forced air, and vent it to the outside with PCV pipe. Don't use the chimney without a liner.

As for weird stuff. Someone had put up a metal shower stall in my basement. No venting no nothing. Just a hot water faucet in the ceiling of the basement, and a drain in the concrete floor. Yeah we didn't use that thing. Mold city.

My brother is a realtor, he told me a house he was showing in my neighborhood had a 1970's gas water heater with no duct work exhaust at all. Just running in the basement, and they left the window open to vent it to the outside. Yeah, no thanks.


The boiler doesn't actually vent into the basement. It vents into the pipe going into the chimney. My concern was the slats, which are for allowing a draft into the exhaust as well. It does produce a small level of suction when running, and like I said we have a CO detector down there. Not that any of us want to spend any time in that basement, it's dark, and creepy.