owners manual calling for obsolete oil (SG,SH)

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

al128

Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
3
Location
samerica
hi there,

both of my bikes (Suz DR650, BMW 1150GS) have "old" design engines - which call for "old" standard oil ...

particularly for SG and SH oil.

I figure this is b/c those were the standards when those manuals were written ...


so a few Q's:

Can I *SAFELY* use more modern spec'd oil (SL,SM)??

BMW will void warranty when SJ oil is used - how about newer standards?

what do folks in similar circumstances do???

- my somewhat pragmatic solution was to go for Mobil Delvac 1300 for the Suz. DR ... from what I read the diesel oils have better and more durable additive packs


any thoughts on "elderly" engines and latest spec oil???

thx a lot
al
 
Shell Rotella T 5w-40 carries an API SH rating among others, and it's performing well in motorcycles.

You can see the SH rating on this product page:
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?site...tellasynth.html

The reason why it can carry an SH rating as well as the later ratings is that the SAE 40 grade universal oils are held to a different standard than the SAE 30 and lower.
 
so, does that mean that I can use - say - SJ rated oil, when it *also* has a SH rating????
 
If the manual requirement is SG or SH, you can very safely use SJ oil. The container/ratings do not have to even say SG or SH, if it's SJ. (assuming it's the correct viscosity, quality oil, etc)

When it starts getting dicey is XW-30 SL and SM oils.
 
Quote:

If the manual requirement is SG or SH, you can very safely use SJ oil. The container/ratings do not have to even say SG or SH, if it's SJ. (assuming it's the correct viscosity, quality oil, etc)

When it starts getting dicey is XW-30 SL and SM oils.

Click to expand...


That's risky behavior if the manufacturer specifically says don't use SJ.
 
Quote:

so, does that mean that I can use - say - SJ rated oil, when it *also* has a SH rating????

Click to expand...


You can with some discretion.
A little background. The MC manufacturers said to stay away from SJ oil for at least three reasons.

1. They were concerned about the lower zinc levels allowed on SJ.

2. They were concerned about low friction modifiers causing wet clutch problems.

3. They wanted to sell more of the over priced botique brand MC oil.

You can avoid problems with 1 and 2 by buying HDEO 15W-40 oil that also meets Allison C4. C4 is an industrial and heavy duty commercial wet clutch and gear oil spec. It's a good spec for MC oil too.

Some will tell you that any 10W-40 that meets SJ,SL or SM specs is also good because API says those oils are suitable for applications calling for SH. Beware of that, they may contain friction modifiers to improve economy that aren't good for clutches and they may not have the level of zinc that the MC manufacturer wants in the oil.
 
NO NO NO. Do not use "newer rated" oils in a bike. As noted in #2 above, the friction modifiers can cause clutch problems. Use a motorcycle rated oil, dino or syn. Or as recommended by XS650 above. Actually, I agree with #1 and 3 above also.
 
popcorn.gif
 
Why, why, why?

Look at my UOA of Delo oil (rated CI4+ SJ, and SL) if you haven’t already seen it.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post957437

Compared to the Honda “motorcycle oil” the Delo had similar wear numbers however, the Delo has WAY more Zinc, phosphorus, and calcium. It looks like the motorcycle oil has the inferior additive package. In addition, the flashpoint and viscosity are better with the Delo. It seems to me that when I use the Delo I am getting a better oil for about ½ the price of the “motorcycle” oil.

As for the clutch problems, I think that we worry about it too much.
The bike that I ride most (ST1100) has about 87,000 miles on it using HDEO most of the time. I just got back from a 3,000-mile trip riding with a passenger, very heavy saddlebags, and a T-Bag., mostly highway miles but lots of mountain riding with no clutch issues at all. In addition to this bike, I have another street bike, two ATVs, a scooter, and two mopeds. None of them has “motorcycle oil” in them and after 40 years of riding, I have never had a clutch problem.

By the way, the bike is currently filled with the Shell 15W40 Triple protection (SM & CJ4) HDEO and I should be posting another 8,000 UOA in a month or so.


Rick
 
What oils has one been running in SAmerica?....I would say Delo, Rotella, Premium Blue, Tection, Ursa or Delvac. Pick one of those if available. Do you have an Amsoil dealer in South America? If so they have some great motorcycle oils.
 
Those that obsess over oil ratings in bikes seem to use myth and legend far more than they use facts and figures.

Name one motorcycle mfg that knows what the level of zddp should be in a motor oil used in their engines. You can't.

Mfg recs. are simply practicing CYA, and nothing more.
These mfgs do NOT have a team of tribology engineers testing and sampling all of the available fluids to find the optimum performer.

They recommend a proper viscosity for that engine design, and then cover their butts from there. OR, they simply recommend what the oil supplier dujour wants them to tout.
It really is that simple, and to think otherwise is naive.

Lower zinc/phosphorus levels have not shown to be detrimental to the build of a proper fluid for bikes...any bikes.
Nor has the use of moly shown to be a problem...well, it may well have been a problem when Honda was pushing oils with MoS2, rather than MoDTC...and three of their Goldwings had some clutch slippage as a result. (which if investigated properly, we will probably find that this was the center of the whole "moly" and "friction modifier" debate that exists)

But then...I am probably all wet, and SG oils probably are the holy grail of bike oils. No way these modern fluids will have near the integrity of an obsolete category of fluid.
pat2.gif


Sorry to be so blunt, but I find those who continue the "friction modifier" and "lower zddp level" debate...without one shred of evidence to back up their claims, (save for quoting others who also perpetuate this issue without any evidence to back up their claims and heart felt warnings they love to pass along), are completely unfounded.
I have to think that these folks have little else to offer, and feel the need to chime in with something...so they find it easy to enter into the "EC" or "friction modifier" debate...always passing along their warnings of what oils not to use...as if it hadn't been warned against before by countless others who have no idea, and simply want to chime in.
dunno.gif
 
----, ----, ----. You can use current oils in motorcycles. The "SJ" or "SM" API ratings are backwards compatible. Your manual is outdated. If you are using the weight oil as specified in your manual and avoiding the "energy conserving" label, which I doubt you will find on any 10w40 or 20w50. YOu are good to go. You will not find any documented information published that would say otherwise.

Best to use oils that have known robust additive packages that are out there. Your universal oils like Rotella 15w40, 5w40 as well as Delo 400 15w40, Delvac 15w40, Mobil 1 EP 15w50 are all excellent oils.

Some use your standard "auto" 10w40 and 20w50 oils with good results.

Whatever makes you feel good.
 
Quote:



Name one motorcycle mfg that knows what the level of zddp should be in a motor oil used in their engines. You can't.



Click to expand...



SNIP


Distribution:
BMW NA Operating
Manager Sales
Manager Accessory
Manager Parts
Manager Service
Manager Set-Up
Workshop
Bulletin Date 11/25/98
Bulletin #2855 Main Group: 11
Engine For USA Only

BMW Motorcycles
Service Bulletin


Subject: SJ Engine Oil - Not Approved

Specification: BMW provides specific recommendations for fuel and lubricants in the Service and Technical Booklet for each model motorcycle, or in the Rider's Manual on older model motorcycles. These recommendations are based on specific knowledge of the engine requirements and thorough endurance testing.
Recommendation: The current recommendation is as follows:
Brandname HD oil, API classification SF, SG or SH; CD or CE suffixes are permissible; alternatively, brand-name HD oil. CCMC classification G4 or G5; suffix PD2 is permissible.

Not Approved: The API specification SJ is not approved for use in any BMW motorcycle. This latest API classification does not guaranty the required levels of wear protective additives such as Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, etc. as with most prior API specifications.
Customer
Interaction: We suggest that you council with your customers regarding the oils being used in their motorcycle. Most oils found in commercial discount and automotive supply stores are now API SJ classification, which means that they should not be used. Use this opportunity to create in store displays and promote the full range of approved BMW motorcycle lubricants.

Very truly yours,

Frank Stevens
After Sales Manager
Motorcycle Group Pat Raymond
Service Organization Manager


/SNIP


that was the reason of my original Q.

thx - Al
 
Quote:

Quote:



Name one motorcycle mfg that knows what the level of zddp should be in a motor oil used in their engines. You can't.



Click to expand...



SNIP


Distribution:
BMW NA Operating
Manager Sales
Manager Accessory
Manager Parts
Manager Service
Manager Set-Up
Workshop
Bulletin Date 11/25/98
Bulletin #2855 Main Group: 11
Engine For USA Only

BMW Motorcycles
Service Bulletin


Subject: SJ Engine Oil - Not Approved

Specification: BMW provides specific recommendations for fuel and lubricants in the Service and Technical Booklet for each model motorcycle, or in the Rider's Manual on older model motorcycles. These recommendations are based on specific knowledge of the engine requirements and thorough endurance testing.
Recommendation: The current recommendation is as follows:
Brandname HD oil, API classification SF, SG or SH; CD or CE suffixes are permissible; alternatively, brand-name HD oil. CCMC classification G4 or G5; suffix PD2 is permissible.

Not Approved: The API specification SJ is not approved for use in any BMW motorcycle. This latest API classification does not guaranty the required levels of wear protective additives such as Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, etc. as with most prior API specifications.
Customer
Interaction: We suggest that you council with your customers regarding the oils being used in their motorcycle. Most oils found in commercial discount and automotive supply stores are now API SJ classification, which means that they should not be used. Use this opportunity to create in store displays and promote the full range of approved BMW motorcycle lubricants.

Very truly yours,

Frank Stevens
After Sales Manager
Motorcycle Group Pat Raymond
Service Organization Manager


/SNIP


that was the reason of my original Q.

thx - Al

Click to expand...


Sorry to read that. I can't believe such ignorance on the part of a manufacturer......oh he's a "sales manager".

If someone can point me to the official document that says API SJ XW-40 oils shall contain lowered amounts of elemental additives, I'd like to read it. We are all learning here.

Thanks!
 
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

1. They were concerned about the lower zinc levels allowed on SJ.

Click to expand...


Again - show me the money baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...


Are you saying that the MC manufacturers weren't concerned about zinc levels?

Click to expand...


I'm not saying that. I'm saying API SJ didn't lower Zn levels.

Click to expand...


SJ didn't require lower levels in xW-40 oils, but indirectly caused looser levels in many 10W-40 oils intended for light duty use.

SJ lowered the levels for oils less viscous that xW-40. Many passenger car 10W-40 oils also got the lower zinc levels because the manufacturers choose to lower the levels to the same levels they used in the xW-30 oils.
 
Read the real thing here:

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/1509_16thedition042007.pdf

I'm not trying to argue semantics, but using a well constructed SJ XW-40 oil will not cause problems. BMW is doing their owners a disservice by trying to dumb down the message. And API did not limit Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, etc. Yes they did limit P to 1000 ppm for XW-30 and XW-20, but even that does not mean death to engines. It's just not that simple.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
Which oil is good for my Commercial Kohler Command 23hp engine? I have API specs
2
Replies
27
Views
1K
jeepman3071
A
Oil for small 2010 Yamaha 4-stroke 4HP outboard?
Replies
10
Views
2K
Warlord
K
Oil recommendation for brush mower with Kawasaki 17 HP FH500V 4 stroke twin
Replies
16
Views
9K
Warlord
L
  • Locked
Advise for Euro E36 M50 engine
Replies
10
Views
4K
Lucase483
D
  • Locked
Manual calls for oil meeting “Ford WSS-M2C925-A”
Replies
6
Views
10K
slacktide_bitog
Back
Top