VW and Audi oil sludge issues . . .
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I've asked before if sludge can cause timing belt failure and the general response is no. But, I keep seeing connected statements like the one above. Is there a way to definitively determine if sludge caused a timing belt failure?
I'm known as "Mr. Auto-Rx" over on the ClubB5.com forum. After replacing my own oil pump and turbo (DIY) on my '98 1.8t Passat with 100k due to sludge blocking the oil intake screen I started the search for solutions and ended up here and began using ARX.
I cleaned the pan out (very crusty and varnished with up to 1/8" of baked on crud) and put the engine back together and ran an ARX clean/rinse. Oil consumption went from 1 qt/2500 miles to zero, the occassional puff of blue smoke on cold startup went away and the engine became ultra-quiet and smooth.
These engines have too small a sump, so I've gone to the Napa 1333 "Big Kahuna" oil filter and I run a 3oz maint dose of ARX. Incidentally, the problem comes mostly from coking of the oil at the turbo. It produces what VW mechanics call, affectionately, "turbo-turds"... hard coked, coffee ground-like particles.
People on ClubB5 are flipping out over the extended warranty and having to prove they changed their oil with synth, etc. I feel like a broken record but I try to interject that they should proactively solve the problem with ARX and perhaps LC instead of fretting over getting warranty coverage once their engine fails.
I cleaned the pan out (very crusty and varnished with up to 1/8" of baked on crud) and put the engine back together and ran an ARX clean/rinse. Oil consumption went from 1 qt/2500 miles to zero, the occassional puff of blue smoke on cold startup went away and the engine became ultra-quiet and smooth.
These engines have too small a sump, so I've gone to the Napa 1333 "Big Kahuna" oil filter and I run a 3oz maint dose of ARX. Incidentally, the problem comes mostly from coking of the oil at the turbo. It produces what VW mechanics call, affectionately, "turbo-turds"... hard coked, coffee ground-like particles.
People on ClubB5 are flipping out over the extended warranty and having to prove they changed their oil with synth, etc. I feel like a broken record but I try to interject that they should proactively solve the problem with ARX and perhaps LC instead of fretting over getting warranty coverage once their engine fails.
Well, in fairness, the number of makes and models that are not having problems with OCIs that are beyond 3k, to a reasonable extent (5k, 7.5k, etc depending upon application) seems to be a lot longer than the list of problem cases.quote:
Originally posted by Ray H:
One more reason why I change oil and filter every 3,000 miles. The chickens are coming home to roost, extended OCI-ers.
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As always, it's up to the owner to do it right. The owner of an early Toyota 1MZ V-6 who pushes things is asking for it. The owner of a GM 3.8L V-6 who routinely does 3/3 changes is just wasting good money and oil.
Actually only 3.7qt sump in the A4.
No surprise as N.A. dealers continue to use 99 cent dino (because "all oil's are the same") and then expect it to go the OEM 10k interval.
Talk to Moribundman about 10k intervals with Syntec 5-50 and look at his engine pics...and then tell me if you see sludge...
Talk to Moribundman about 10k intervals with Syntec 5-50 and look at his engine pics...and then tell me if you see sludge...
I've been reading about the 1.8T consuming all sorts of oil, and now the oil sludge thing. Maybe my experience with my '02 Passat is a great testimony to Schaeffer's oil.
Now, I admit I don't drive the crap out of mine like so many 1.8T owners seem to do, but I don't baby it either. Just ask one certain Genesee County Sheriff!
At nearly 65k miles, almost every oil change has been Schaeffer's and most of those were 5W-30. I thought the 15W-40 made the car a little sluggish. The 10W-30 seemed okay but I use 5W-30 in my other vehicle. Plus the 5W-30 gave the best oil analysis of all of them. You can probably find a couple of my reports in the UOA section. I've been very religious about 5k OCIs. My 1.8T does not use any oil that I can discern in a 5k interval. And according the analyses that I've done and by appearance, the oil is not getting oxidized. Oh, and my wear metals are nearly non-existent.
So. Am I lucky and just got a particularly good 1.8T? Or, is Schaeffer's oil really performing well in this engine? My personal belief is that Schaeffer's is the way to go.
Now, I admit I don't drive the crap out of mine like so many 1.8T owners seem to do, but I don't baby it either. Just ask one certain Genesee County Sheriff!
So. Am I lucky and just got a particularly good 1.8T? Or, is Schaeffer's oil really performing well in this engine? My personal belief is that Schaeffer's is the way to go.
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As everyone probably knows, sludge first appeared in the '70s and '80s in Europe, where it destroyed scores of engines. Newly developed oils solved the problem. Last year, I was trying to find out whether or not sludge was once again becoming an issue in Europe. From what I found, the extended OCIs and longlife oils do in fact lead to sludge issues in a number of vehicles, and from what I found out, sludge is on the rise. As a counter measure, it seems many people do adhere to shorter OCIs and they don't use longlife oils.
As for whether the 1.8T engines by VW and Audi are the same, I'm not sure. Materials might differ, specs might differ, parts might differ, and they might even run at different temperatures. A small sump (under 4L) doesn't help.
My 2.8 V6 Audi motor takes 5.-2 - 5.5 quarts (depending on filter size), and extra 0.5 qt won't cause any issues. I really down't know why Audi gave the 1.8T a tiny sump. I'm not surprised that engine sludges. From what I read at Audiworld, most people use oil that doesn't meet the proper specs. That means they use 5W-30 or whatever garbage the dealer uses.
As for whether the 1.8T engines by VW and Audi are the same, I'm not sure. Materials might differ, specs might differ, parts might differ, and they might even run at different temperatures. A small sump (under 4L) doesn't help.
My 2.8 V6 Audi motor takes 5.-2 - 5.5 quarts (depending on filter size), and extra 0.5 qt won't cause any issues. I really down't know why Audi gave the 1.8T a tiny sump. I'm not surprised that engine sludges. From what I read at Audiworld, most people use oil that doesn't meet the proper specs. That means they use 5W-30 or whatever garbage the dealer uses.
cough cough...no it did not take until the 70s and 80s, with older oils sludge was a common thing, just try taking apart a 50s or 60s small block Chevy. I'm sure it was even more common in the days before that of non-detergent oil. to say sludge first showed up in Europe in the 70s/80s is totally false.
I'm not sure I'd be quite so harsh in my clarifying that assertion. I'd certainly agree that a previously uncommon sludge-making process became common in the 70s and 80s. In particular, we began to see ever smaller engines pushed to new performance heights, often with the primitive turbos of the day. Those engines could turn what was then thought to be good oil into black death in no time flat. Oversimplifying, these engines burned up and polluted their oil very quickly. Engines of earlier years got sludgy because of poor primitive oils, steamy lukewarm engine temps, lead in gasoline, inadequate CCV, and so forth.
So assertion at issue isn't totally false, but it is an inadequate description of "the history of sludge."
My '01 New Beetle also has the 1.8T engine with 4.8 quart sump (filter included). It has the post shut-off coolant pump that keeps circulating coolant to the turbo bearing housing. I believe this was an update and not all 1.8T engines has this feature.
After the 25k of free oil changes (every 5k), I switched to Mobil 1 and increased OCI to 7.5k. The car sees a few trips to Las Vegas each year with constant speeds above 85 mph in 95-105*F heat. The car has been chipped for the last 20k and now has 71k on the clock w/no problems so far.
I suspect bad oil and lack of maintenance are the culprits. There are 10k+ UOAs for this engine with positive results.
[ September 02, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Bugzii ]
After the 25k of free oil changes (every 5k), I switched to Mobil 1 and increased OCI to 7.5k. The car sees a few trips to Las Vegas each year with constant speeds above 85 mph in 95-105*F heat. The car has been chipped for the last 20k and now has 71k on the clock w/no problems so far.
I suspect bad oil and lack of maintenance are the culprits. There are 10k+ UOAs for this engine with positive results.
[ September 02, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Bugzii ]
I just wonder what % of the failures that actually occur where owners stretch the oil changes once for a long period or many times just a few thousand over using dino? I bet that is a significant portion of the engine failures while a smaller subset are people who actually follow the proper schedule. Toyota stated this also in their findings, although it sounds like blame the customer I bet there was level of abuse involved in the bulk of the failures.
Its just that these engines happen to be more suseptible to failing while just over warranty so VW/Audi/Toyota are doing something about them.
Its just that these engines happen to be more suseptible to failing while just over warranty so VW/Audi/Toyota are doing something about them.
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Okay, let me clarify. I figured I could get away with simplifying my statement, as almost every issue on the forums gets simplified due to time and space constraints.
What I meant was, a real sludge problem first showed up in Europe (read what I said previously, I didn't say there was no sludge elsewhere or before that time) in a large number of engines in the '70s and '80s. Sludge was known back then in the press as "Black Death," a term that was then coined and not before that time. Engines failed on a daily basis, and even though I was just a little kid back then, I remember how we were worried our Austin Allegro would "catch Black Death."
It was of course in the '70s that small cars had suddenly very powerful small engines (think VW GTI, Ford Capri, Opel Manta, etc. ), and the oil just wasn't up to snuff.
[ September 02, 2004, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
What I meant was, a real sludge problem first showed up in Europe (read what I said previously, I didn't say there was no sludge elsewhere or before that time) in a large number of engines in the '70s and '80s. Sludge was known back then in the press as "Black Death," a term that was then coined and not before that time. Engines failed on a daily basis, and even though I was just a little kid back then, I remember how we were worried our Austin Allegro would "catch Black Death."
It was of course in the '70s that small cars had suddenly very powerful small engines (think VW GTI, Ford Capri, Opel Manta, etc. ), and the oil just wasn't up to snuff.
[ September 02, 2004, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]
Was it a 1.8T with a 3.9 quart sump?
I have no doubt 10Ks are no problem for some engines. An A3 oil may even be okay in the 1.8T, who knows. But my engine is not about to be a test bed for this experiment. If somebody else wants to test the theory, more power to em'.
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It's a 2.8 normally aspirated V6 with a 5.2 qt sump. I never used anything but A3 rated oil (until now).
Patman
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For those of you with 1.8T cars with the smaller oil capacity, have you tried putting in an extra 1/2 quart of oil to see if the system can handle it? I've been overfilling my wife's 2000 Civic by a 1/2 liter for a few years now with no ill effects. (it calls for 3.6L but I put in 4.1L)
I spoke to my dealer about a year ago, and said, I can't believe you are letting conventional oil go for 15,000km in turbo engines. Their reply was, "Well, the owner's manuals don't call for synthetic." Actually the manual does call for an A3 spec oil, but I wasn't about to get into it with them because obviously they haven't a clue about what A3 is. I also recieved the sludge letter from Audi, and they now state that all oil used must meet the VW 502.00 requirement, which an anti-sludging property. Lucky for me, I've been using GC 0W30 all along, which exceeds both ACEA A3 and VW 502.00
I now have an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty against engine sludge!
Knowledge is power !
I now have an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty against engine sludge!
Knowledge is power !
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