F1 Spying Case
I wonder what the reasoning was for allowing the drivers to keep their points but this measure for the mfg?
I wonder what the reasoning was for allowing the drivers to keep their points but this measure for the mfg?
McLaren-Ferrari Spy Case
- Thread starter benjamming
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The drivers didn't do anything wrong but if their vehicles were improved as a result of the info from Ferrari then the points should be reduced in someway, imo.
$100,000,000 is a ---- of a lot of money, I dunno if the punishment (monetary) fits the crime. I think being excluded from the constructors championship is a good call by the FIA though.
Jon
Jon
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The drivers did share info that may be based on illegal documents.
If what was stated on Speed by Bob Varsha, Alonso tried to blackmail Ron Dennis about who had what when and how it was used. Alonso's tenure at Mclaren will be short lived, world champion or not.
The whole cloak and dagger act, along with the huge fine is ridiculous. F1 is and probably always will be a very tiny group of people working with the factories. How many people working for any given team right now have also worked at one or more other teams? I doubt they "forgot" all they knew when they changed uniforms. They take everything they know with them. That's part of the reason they get hired.
And as Varsha mentioned, this sort of thing has happened before without the huge penalties. So what's different now?
I give it 1/2 a point more interest quotient than hearing about Junior and his step mother. IOW, a big Maybe the FIA should spend it's time figuring out how to add something to the races instead. Like PASSING...
And as Varsha mentioned, this sort of thing has happened before without the huge penalties. So what's different now?
I give it 1/2 a point more interest quotient than hearing about Junior and his step mother. IOW, a big Maybe the FIA should spend it's time figuring out how to add something to the races instead. Like PASSING...
I agree jsharp. F1 is an incestuous circus. What's different now is that Ferrari is crying to the FIA to punish someone else for their benefit. Being the best team on the track is but one way to a championship, buying a championship title through the courts is another. Some men are too weak & allow greed to rule over everything else. Luca Cordero di Montezemolo is such a man.
However, they are doing away with traction control (TC) next year to try & force more driver errors to allow more overtaking. We'll see.
However, they are doing away with traction control (TC) next year to try & force more driver errors to allow more overtaking. We'll see.
Then they are moving in on NASCARS territory. NASCAR should sue them.
What an utter crock...McLaren accepts stolen goods from insiders, a 780 page dossier full of technical drawings, engineering calcs, wind tunnel test data for Ferrari's 2008 car, and this is somehow par for the course. It's bona fide industrial espionage, and Ferrari are whiners for seeking their resolution before the FIA. This wasn't just data to help McLaren with race day setup. This wasn't merely Alonso getting SMS's (during a race) on Ferrari's pit stop strategy and fuel load. That's bad enough by itself. But we're talking conscious receipt of proprietary and patentable industrial secrets. McLaren got off easy. Hopefully it isn't over yet...
Well said gigi riva. McLaren got off easy. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Italian courts. It took Williams years to settle the court case involving the death of Senna at Monza. This thing is far from over.
Here's a couple more articles for you guys
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070914/FREE/70914008
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070913/FREE/70913009
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070914/FREE/70914008
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070913/FREE/70913009
Well, an employee of one company received proprietary information from a disgruntled employee of another company. No matter how melodramatic you want to make it, we're not talking nuclear launch codes or submarine propeller machining secrets here. We're not even talking about "patentable" secrets that have as much value as what will become common parts used on everyday passenger cars. Virtually any trade secret in any large industry has more potential value than the whole of world racing, F1 included.
Get a grip folks. This is racing, it's not the automotive business. It's a marketing prop for auto companies, not the design department. People think racing is some kind of pinnacle. It's not, it's something lots of companies do but not all of them. And it's an expense, not some cutting edge research and development system. For years Honda wouldn't allow its experienced engineers to even work on racing projects because they wanted them working on production vehicles, a place where they actually make money. So the new guys got to play with race cars and motorcycles while they learned their trade. And their good engineers made cars and motorcycles and small engines that made them the company they are.
So again, all I can say is When this is over, and the posturing stops and the lawyers are richer, will we get to see real racing that includes things like PASSING? Somehow I doubt this. That's why I think it's going to end up business as usual...
Get a grip folks. This is racing, it's not the automotive business. It's a marketing prop for auto companies, not the design department. People think racing is some kind of pinnacle. It's not, it's something lots of companies do but not all of them. And it's an expense, not some cutting edge research and development system. For years Honda wouldn't allow its experienced engineers to even work on racing projects because they wanted them working on production vehicles, a place where they actually make money. So the new guys got to play with race cars and motorcycles while they learned their trade. And their good engineers made cars and motorcycles and small engines that made them the company they are.
So again, all I can say is When this is over, and the posturing stops and the lawyers are richer, will we get to see real racing that includes things like PASSING? Somehow I doubt this. That's why I think it's going to end up business as usual...
For manufacturers of high end performance cars like McLaren and Ferrari it is an integral part of their automotive business, and their main R&D department. When you buy a Ferrari, you've bought years of materials and technology developed for and tested in Formula 1. To claim otherwise, and suggest Ferrari and Honda follow similar business models, or produce a similar product, is silly. In any case...
LOL,
So McLarren manage their F1 endeavours on an R&D budget, paid for by the average McLarren buyer. They sell a couple million econoMcLarrens for every street-supercar, and the balance goes into "improving the breed"
F1 has nothing to do with the cars that you and I buy.
maybe next year when they go "pseudo-hybrid" with eco-fuels.
So McLarren manage their F1 endeavours on an R&D budget, paid for by the average McLarren buyer. They sell a couple million econoMcLarrens for every street-supercar, and the balance goes into "improving the breed"
F1 has nothing to do with the cars that you and I buy.
maybe next year when they go "pseudo-hybrid" with eco-fuels.
Just b/c a particular action is not on the level of some higher & more "important" action doesn't mean it's not a big deal. If you rob a bank tomorrow & steal $10k, it's not like you set off a megaton bomb in the middle of a city. However, you robbing the bank is still a big deal in that little world. Same thing here.
However, what I still don't understand is that it was an employee of Ferrari that gave the information. Nothing has happened to him or Ferrari. So it appears that one only needs to hire a scapegoat for the purpose of destroying your competitor and funnel information through them & then blow the whistle. Your competitor is destroyed. Like I said earlier, F1 recycles employees - what of them with their knowledge?
And it's an expense, not some cutting edge research and development system. For years Honda wouldn't allow its experienced engineers to even work on racing projects because they wanted them working on production vehicles, a place where they actually make money. So the new guys got to play with race cars and motorcycles while they learned their trade. And their good engineers made cars and motorcycles and small engines that made them the company they are.
It is R&D which you are correct is an expense. Many items flow from F1 into the Ferrari "street" cars.
It doesn't appear that you are a F1 fan & that's fine. Or maybe you've been very unimpressed with F1 due to no passing. Understandable.
Anyway, a few races ago the broadcasters on Speed actually said the opposite in regards to Honda and their engineers. The engineers would have a stint in the race business prior to working in the mfg world.
If the F1 race world wasn't important to the car companies they wouldn't have 800-1000 engineers working & spending millions of dollars every year. Now how much of that is just viewed as advertising dollars, I don't know. But many things filter down such as carbon-ceramic brakes, transmission, etc.
However, what I still don't understand is that it was an employee of Ferrari that gave the information. Nothing has happened to him or Ferrari. So it appears that one only needs to hire a scapegoat for the purpose of destroying your competitor and funnel information through them & then blow the whistle. Your competitor is destroyed. Like I said earlier, F1 recycles employees - what of them with their knowledge?
And it's an expense, not some cutting edge research and development system. For years Honda wouldn't allow its experienced engineers to even work on racing projects because they wanted them working on production vehicles, a place where they actually make money. So the new guys got to play with race cars and motorcycles while they learned their trade. And their good engineers made cars and motorcycles and small engines that made them the company they are.
It is R&D which you are correct is an expense. Many items flow from F1 into the Ferrari "street" cars.
It doesn't appear that you are a F1 fan & that's fine. Or maybe you've been very unimpressed with F1 due to no passing. Understandable.
Anyway, a few races ago the broadcasters on Speed actually said the opposite in regards to Honda and their engineers. The engineers would have a stint in the race business prior to working in the mfg world.
If the F1 race world wasn't important to the car companies they wouldn't have 800-1000 engineers working & spending millions of dollars every year. Now how much of that is just viewed as advertising dollars, I don't know. But many things filter down such as carbon-ceramic brakes, transmission, etc.
Ferrari and McLaren do have different business models than Toyota or Honda. So what racing is to a company that's only product is low volume ultra expensive high performance cars is likely very different from what it is to the rest of the automotive world. No question about that.
People buy those cars for a lot of reasons. Their performance is only one of them and in many cases likely a small one except for the bragging rights they might bring. I seriously doubt if 50% of those cars are ever driven to within 50% of their limits...
One of your points I put in bold because I find that interesting myself. And why I believe there's as much background politics driving this as anything else.
My point about engineering priorities was based on what I was told directly by Japanese engineers working for Honda in the late 70's. People I actually worked with on a project. I'll defer to the experts on Speed for how things might work now.
I'm not a fan of F1 for the simple reason that the racing is neither close nor competitive. It's mostly a sport where wins or losses are decided in the garage, not on the track. The politics add another dimension to that but again, that doesn't make the racing anymore interesting. The technology is a marvel. The racing and many of the drivers are so-so at best in spite of them being thought of as the best in the world.
I don't single them out though. I've made almost the same comments about what Nascar has become, it's only slight salvation being that the racing is close some of the time and the drivers and crews can still make some difference on race day.
US open wheel racing? Please. Why can't we just let it die and then maybe someone with some foresight will come along to resurrect it as an interesting and unified series. Then maybe we'll see young US talent aspiring to race there instead of seeing how quickly they can move to Nascar.
The Daytona Prototypes had an interesting run and ending this year. Too bad it too was tainted with politics and everyone in the front was driving the same car.
I'm probably a curmudgeon when it comes to these things...
And that my friends is why I like sprintcar racing. More passing/action in a single lap than a year of F1 'racing' The look on peoples faces when I take them to PCR the home of the Outlaws Downunder every January for the first time is priceless.
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