Radiator leak that won't go away...Please help.

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That's an interesting TSB... don't know what to make of it in light of another Ford TSB posted here:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=3#Post887590

The interesting part is this:
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4. If there is still excessive voltage present in the coolant, check the engine to body/battery grounds. Also, verify proper grounding of any aftermarket electrical/electronic equipment which has been installed into the vehicle. Improperly grounded electrical devices can cause electrolysis to occur.
5. If the condition is still present after the grounds have been checked, it may be necessary to add extra grounds to the heater core and engine. A hose clamp can be used to secure a 16 AWG stranded copper wire to the heater core inlet tube. The other end should be secured to an EXISTING FASTENER on the body sheet metal. Extra grounds to the engine should be attached between EXISTING FASTENERS on the engine and body sheet metal. Verify continuity of any added grounds to the negative battery terminal.




Don't know what to make of this apparent contradiction from Ford engineers. I'm just speaking from my experience of having dealt with lots of radiator ground wires over the years. Makes sense to me that it would reduce voltage differential between cooling system components, and therefore reduce electralysis.
 
You're right, the two are contradictory. With what I understand about electrolysis, you need two different metals electrically coupled in the presence of an electrolyte for electrolysis to occur. Grounding the heater core (or radiator core) will provide this undesirable coupling. It will be coupled to the cast iron engine block and make brass or aluminum the anode (the metal that wastes away). This is assuming the the heater core and radiator core are completely isolated via rubber hoses and rubber mounts. (Though I'm curious about the metal transmission cooler line). So, I'm in favor of the first tsb presented by GMguy.

The radiator and heater can still corrode without bulk electrolysis from simple dissolution if pH of the coolant is wrong or has drifted for the application.
 
The older TSB is 01156, Ford flip flopped on the issue and published 6-21-19 due to continued heater core failures.

Partial rambling alert;
I read the links presented yesterday, and comparing Zerex G05 and Classic specs, I'd almost have to say G05 provides better protection for old systems than classic. There are a few contradictory points when you 1. read valvolines statements as to why classic is prefered for classics. 2. read the specs. G05 contains a hair MORE Silicates than classic. 3. The wear tests are themselves slightly contradictory (theres two for each coolant). One coolant has less solder erosion in one tests, more in the other. Of course, thats my interpretation of what I'm reading.
Walking away, I am inclined to say G05 would be THE coolant to purchase instead of classic green for an old copper/brass system. Or in my case, a mix of copper, brass and aluminum in a couple of my cars. (various combinations of head/block/heater core/rad)
The other positive to the G05 I can say is that I know when I buy it what I am getting. The only 'classic green' I can find are house brands. How can I be sure it really is classic and not some re-badged all-makes formula? Or for that matter, sufficiently doped to be benificial. Given the failures I've had, I'd say the house brand greens are not up to snuff and I can't do any worse by changing to G05 next time I have to crack open the cooling system.

Alex.
 
Gm Guy,

Maybe coolants are like oil, in that a $20 VOA comparison does not show the "total package" effects. Maybe there is more to it than just the silicate level. Maybe there is a synergistic effect between the phosphates/silicates in traditional coolant that matters.

Texaco/Havoline also recommends traditional green in older vehicles:

http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/havolinecoolants/findRightCoolant.asp

"If you have a late-model or diesel-powered vehicle which has always run the "green stuff," then Texaco's Anti-Freeze Coolant is the right choice. It is a low-silicate, all-purpose formula designed for use in both automotive engines and heavy-duty diesel engines, especially those containing aluminum alloys."

This interesting 1999 article eludes to several problems when switching from "green" to Dex Cool like the original poster did here:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/3837/dexcool.html

First, the cooling systems -on all older cars have at one time contained traditional phosphate/silicate blends of antifreeze. Thus silicate and phosphate residuals will remain in the cooling systems and continue to break away from surfaces, crevices, and tight areas, entering the new DEX-COOL coolant solution. DEX-COOL is not designed to properly disperse or keep these materials in solution. Therefore, they will seek and adhere to the hottest surfaces within the cooling system, forming scales and deposits. Since the hottest areas are the locations where the greatest amount Of heat transfer takes place, they are the worst spots to have deposits that impede heat transfer. The result is a dramatic affect on cooling system efficiency and performance. Also since corrosion is most likely to occur under deposits, using DEX-COOL could affect long-term corrosion prevention.

The second problem with using DEX-COOL in infrequently driven vehicles, according to Ross, concerns the completely organic character Of carboxylates in DEX-COOL which make them very good long-life corrosion inhibitors. Unfortunately, being organic, they are consumed by some types of bacteria. The bacteria feeds off the carboxylates, using them as a nutrient, so the corrosion protection that they offer disappears and creates, a potentially serious corrosion problem.

Finally, in some cooling systems, DEX-COOL may interact with internal materials. For this reason, a recent service bulletin from GM specifically states, “DEX-COOL may be used in 1994 and later Buick models for improved water pump seal performance. It should not be used in 1993 or earlier vehicles because its chemical ingredients interact with internal copper-soldered joints.”

IN short, two major coolant manufacturers still recommend traditional green over G05 for older vehicles.
 
Sure, cloudy the waters some more =-) Because as far as I was concerned G05 is not the same as Dex-Cool.
I was under the impression G05, for lack of better wording, is a hybrid of classic green, and dex-cool a completely different animal all together.

Alex.
 
Though the G05 may contain more silicates, the pH is different. I measured the pH of my cooling systems. The ones with traditional green were 9.8, 10.1. The one with G05 is 7.5. I'm curious how the pH plays out in protecting leaded joints.
 
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I am sorry about the conflict...I did not ask for that...but it was thrust upon me.




FYI, that particular user has a history of that type of behavior here.

As far as your radiator problem, have you used a multimeter to check for a voltage in the coolant? You'd want to place one probe in the radiator coolant and the other probe on the battery negative terminal. I think any reading over .5 volts DC is cause for concern.
 
I should mention also that the voltage test should be done with the engine running and every possible electrical device turned on..headlights, AC, defroster, stereo, etc.

As far as Ford flip-flopping on grounding the heater core, I could see where that would be a bad idea IF the engine to body grounds were poor. Then there WOULD be a current flow through the coolant to the heater core which would chew it up in a hurry.

In the second TSB, however, they suggest adding grounds to both the engine and the heater core. This would bring the heater core to the same electrical potential as the engine.

See, there are two issues here:

Issue #1:

A potential difference between two components of the cooling system due to a bad ground. For example, a multimeter placed between the engine and the radiator might show a voltage difference when the engine is running. This is a bad ground in action.

(By the way..where is your electric cooling fan grounded?)

Issue #2:

Electrolysis due to different metals being used in the cooling system.

I think the issue here is #1. Issue #2 is always going to happen and that's why the coolant is designed to handle it and why we change coolant before it wears out.

But coolant is NOT designed to handle problem #1. Any stray current flowing through the cooling system due to a bad ground is going to cause a lot of damage really quickly.
 
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CAUTION:DO NOT GROUND HEATER CORE. IF THE HEATER CORE IS GROUNDED, YOU HAVE PROVIDED THE ELECTROLOSIS A PATH THROUGH THE HEATER CORE. THIS WOULD CAUSE THE HEATER CORE TO BECOME AN ANODE OR RECEIVER




I don't think that's correct. It would be a cathode, not an anode.

Quote:


A cathode is an electrode through which (positive) electric current flows out of a polarized electrical device. Mnemonic: CCD (Cathode Current Departs).


 
And, furthermore, it would appear that grounding the heater core might actually help protect it, "cathodic protection".

Of course whatever other component in the cooling system that is more positive than the heater core is going to suffer corrosion since it will be an anode.
 
Wow...you guys really made some good points. I am surprised to see all the hits I got on this thread. Thank you for all of your input. I am going to make an appointment with the rad. shop and they are going to flush my entire system, fix the rad. again...this time they are going to remove the tank on that side and fix it form the inside out and refil everything with traditional green. They use Peak original but I am going to bring them Zerex original. My car originally came with a brass/copper rad so I think what ever the brass copper rads need is what I am going to use. I will let everyone know how it goes after it gets done!!!

Brian...thanks for making sure everybody knows that about that individual...I did not intend on getting into it with somebody after my first post. I didn't do anything to provoke such a response. Thank you.

Thanks to all who have provided input.

JB
 
Quote:


Though the G05 may contain more silicates, the pH is different. I measured the pH of my cooling systems. The ones with traditional green were 9.8, 10.1. The one with G05 is 7.5. I'm curious how the pH plays out in protecting leaded joints.




7 is neutral, so that that wouldn't be an issue-if your run distilled water in your rad thats where you would be.

Have you measured 'seasoned' old green? Fresh green? Old/fresh G05? I'm curious as to how big a swing, and which direction each type takes as it ages.
If old green goes acidic after 2 years, and g05 remains stable over 2 years, that would make another point for G05 in a traditional system.

Alex.
 
Been reading too many coolant links, same as before, just when you think you found an answer, they contradict themselves one more time.

John, something for you to check out; click on "Heater Core/Radiator Repeat Failures: Electrolysis or Head Gasket Leaks" Seems to point directly at your problem.
http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/Cooling.html

Alex.
 
There's a lot of talk about ungrounded radiators and heater cores as the cause for electrolysis failures. I still don't see how electrolysis can occur if the cores are electrically isolated from system. If anything, grounding would complete the circuit and result in electrolysis corrosion.

I do see merit in measuring the potential difference between the coolant and radiator.
 
It is important to realize that any current flow in the cooling system *IS* going to cause a voltage gradient that is going to result in one end of a core being more positive than the other, when that core is ungrounded.
 
The point I got from the volvo article is to find out what is causing the current flow and correct it, not to band aid it with potentially useless grounds (going by fords newer tsb on the subject).

Alex.
 
There is no mention of any pressure check you may have done on your radiator cap. Can we assume you have checked this and it is within spec? FWIW
 
alot of cars these days come with rubber and plastic isolated radiators. why are you guys telling this fellow to ground his radiator? thats the exact opposite of what most cars have!
 
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