Modern Motor Oil Esters

Status
Not open for further replies.
quote:

biodiesel:

What is it/will it take for us to come up with factual information regarding this subject?


1. Someone needs to manufacture a fully formulated motor oil based on a modern motor oil ester.

2. Based on field tests on a statistically significant number of vehicles for a significant mileage and time under a variety of conditions demonstrate that they perform.

It would be nice, having accomplished that, if they did not sell for two or three times the price of competitive products unless they can demonstrate some remarkable performance attributes justifying the high prices.

Red Line fails at (2). It's retailing for not quite twice the price of Mobil 1, which makes lubricants which will allow most users to drive their car until it rusts away.

The European boutique products haven't made available (2). Their prices are a bit steep.
 
Hey Brian,

We all know you don't like esters. Hurrah. So you don't like Redline oil and you do like Mobil 1. Same here! It's not because I think esters are the devil though, it's because I'm not impressed with Redline UOAs and its high price.
Unless you can show some clear proof that esters IN AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OILS have all these problems you claim (innocent until proven guilty I guess), why don't you back off? You've already made YOUR position very clear, and you've come across as something of an *** doing it.

[ August 06, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Bdiddy ]
 
quote:

1. Someone needs to manufacture a fully formulated motor oil based on a modern motor oil ester.


It can be done, but I don't think the market would bear the price for a purely ester oil.

I would like to see all natural oils in lubricants, because of their stability, farm support, renewability, and biodegradability. But at this point in time, the market cannot bear the price of a full natural ester oil. The economic viability just isn't there!


quote:


2. Based on field tests on a statistically significant number of vehicles for a significant mileage and time under a variety of conditions demonstrate that they perform.

And you are aware of engine failures caused by high ester oils?

quote:



It would be nice, having accomplished that, if they did not sell for two or three times the price of competitive products unless they can demonstrate some remarkable performance attributes justifying the high prices.


Again, you fail to appreciate the economics of the situation, the high cost of esters and market "bearability " if you will.

Red Line fails at (2). It's retailing for not quite twice the price of Mobil 1, which makes lubricants which will allow most users to drive their car until it rusts away.

The European boutique products haven't made available (2). Their prices are a bit steep.

Nothing personal, but this demostrates to me a lack of understanding of the economics of market forces and prices of basic components.


Now this thread's topic was engaged to speak to the technicalities of modern ester oils and give people a chance to demonstrate a problem with those oils.


Anyone can go to the internet and do searches, but notice the result of one of the searches:
quote:



TRIMET-Trimethylolethane (TME) is a high performance polyol containing three primary hydroxyl groups. Its compact neopentyl structure provides high hydroxyl content and excellent resistance to the effects of heat, light, hydrolyses, and oxidation.

Typical TRIMET applications include premium quality alkyd and polyester resins for paints, powder coating resins, polyol ester synthetic lubricants, plasticizers, stabilizers for plastics, and titanium dioxide pigment coatings.

Emphasis mine in bold. Please notice the bolded sentence. I think it speaks for itself. This from a chemical company that produces these types of polyolesters; Mobil (EM) is another.
 
quote:

Bdiddy:
Hey Brian,

We all know you don't like esters.


You *assume* I don't like esters, whatever that means.

I loved my old Aunt Ester. She was a peach. Great cook, generous to a fault .....

If you waded through the SAE papers I excerpted from a post in another thread, you'd see some concerns expressed about polyol esters and seals.

The anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal.

Since I don't have an API certified polyol ester based motor oil, a statistically significant number of vehicles in which to test it, and the time and money to fund a field test, I'm waiting for someone else to provide all of these and share the results.

Until then, I'd be hesitant to recommend an untested, unrated, and expensive lubricant to someone over something like Mobil 1 which has a track record, extensive field tests (they learned their lesson with the aviation Mobil 1), costs less, and could easily keep their engine running perfectly for 250,000 miles.

Is that backed off enough for you?

If it isn't, what are your requirements?
 
quote:

MolaKule:
1. Someone needs to manufacture a fully formulated motor oil based on a modern motor oil ester.

It can be done, but I don't think the market would bear the price for a purely ester oil.



So, you don't see a future for Motul, Red Line, Maxima, and other boutique ester based motor oils?

quote:

And you are aware of engine failures caused by high ester oils?



As far as I can tell, no tests have been made of high ester motor oils in a statistically significant number of vehicles, so failures - like successes - are anecdotal and therefore not relevant to the thread as you outlined it.

quote:

Again, you fail to appreciate the economics of the situation, the high cost of esters and market "bearability " if you will.



And what are the economics of the situation?

quote:

Nothing personal, but this demostrates to me a lack of understanding of the economics of market forces and prices of basic components..



Nothing personal, but that's the second time you've used the term "economics" without a scintilla of explanation of just what you mean by the word, demonstrating to me an attempt - knowing or unknowing - to obfuscate the simple conclusion that esters don't offer benefits worth their high cost with or without any ill effects.

quote:

Now this thread's topic was engaged to speak to the technicalities of modern ester oils and give people a chance to demonstrate a problem with those oils.



And so far the only "technicalities" presented on the "for" side are unsupported allegations that they are wonderful and don't damage anything.

With that on the "for" side, there doesn't appear to be a need to present an "against" side.

quote:

Please notice the bolded sentence.

Note it? I posted it.

And I suggested it indicated trimethylolethane might make a useful additive.

But then Mobil and other PAO and Group III formulaters have been adding esters to their formulations for years, as someone noted in the other thread.

But something that comes in granular form doesn't sound like a candidate for the base of a fully formulated motor oil.
 
quote:

Originally posted by buster:
Check this Out

Buster, you tawdry little oil slutlete.
grin.gif
How do you manage to find these things?
 
My view is, that was a great debate and my horizons were expanded. I hope MolaKule and Brian would at least agree to disagree, and both continue to contribute to the BITOG forum.

I think the rest is up to the individual to reasearch and decide for themselves.
 
Artistic thoughts my mind caressing
Amidst the debate 'twas clearly pressing
One wonders what it was addressing
As for me, I find it quite depressing

It devolved into oneupsmanship
Surely the other guy would slip
And so the denouement was reached
Now one surely must be impeached

Heat, not light, in full, released
And civility was quite decreased
And few were wiser than before
Doesn't anyone this stuff deplore?
frown.gif


But
cheers.gif
nonetheless

[ August 06, 2004, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
 
quote:

Buster, you tawdry little oil slutlete.

Awright 427Z06, knock off the name calling!!
smile.gif


Actually, the phrase "tawdry little oil slutlete" has a nice ring to it & I'll probably write it down for future use. With proper source credit, of course!
smile.gif
smile.gif
 
Brian,
I fully recognize your position on "high ester content" motor oils. However, you come across as though your opinion is fact, and then when questioned you become rather highfalutin and somewhat contradictory IMO.
Here's one example:
quote:

Originally posted by Brian:
As far as I can tell, no tests have been made of high ester motor oils in a statistically significant number of vehicles, so failures - like successes - are anecdotal and therefore not relevant to the thread as you outlined it.

But, later in the same post:
quote:

Nothing personal, but that's the second time you've used the term "economics" without a scintilla of explanation of just what you mean by the word, demonstrating to me an attempt - knowing or unknowing - to obfuscate the simple conclusion that esters don't offer benefits worth their high cost with or without any ill effects.

Without scientific proof(which you just stated we didn't have), how was a conclusion drawn?
If it's opinion, it should be stated as such.

Furthermore, merely suppling a list of web sites or SAE papers, that may or may not be immaterial, accomplishes nothing.

So, until you provide cogent evidence to substantiate your argument, your sentiment is duly noted.

Steve
 
quote:

Neither one of those companies, despite their website claims, is an API licensee.

I agree that companies should be more clear.
I think they assert meeting API specifications. I take this to mean they independently ran the same ASTM and/or sequence tests as the API; however, they chose not to pay for the use of their service symbol "donut".



FWIW
I pulled this from APIs site:
Schedule A - License Agreement
The Certification Marks referred to and licensed under the agreement between API and the licensee are as follows:
Licensee is authorized to display the API Service Symbol on the following products:
Energy Conserving may be displayed only on products noted with an asterisk (*).

License No Company Name
0609 MOTUL SA

Brand Name SAE Viscosity Grade Service Category

8100 E-TECH 0W-40 SJ/CF
{which is listed by Motul, per their site, as ester based}

[ August 07, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: 69 Riv GS ]
 
quote:

69 Riv GS:
.... and then when questioned you become rather highfalutin and somewhat contradictory IMO.



Well, I haven't said I'm an engineer, chemist, physicist, or other "expert" and then tried to palm off personal opinion as something more.

quote:



"Nothing personal, but that's the second time you've used the term "economics" without a scintilla of explanation of just what you mean by the word, demonstrating to me an attempt - knowing or unknowing - to obfuscate the simple conclusion that esters don't offer benefits worth their high cost with or without any ill effects."

Without scientific proof(which you just stated we didn't have), how was a conclusion drawn?


You seem to be mixing science, logic, and economics.

The other poster had already said that esters were expensive - he said it's why Amsoil switched to PAOs. Red Line says they're more expensive. Every ester lubricant offered for consideration - Motul, Maxima, and the various tiny bottlers and formulators - are expensive.

We have no evidence esters offer any benefits over - for instance polyalphaolefins - lubricants with proven track records and a proven ability to extend engine life beyond the life of the body and chassis (e.g., Mobil's 250,000 mile runs on Oldsmobiles and BMWs some years ago).

So, when someone suggests his opponent is too stupid or too ignorant to understand "the economics", it's fair to suggest that he's avoiding dealing with the high price of esters and the lack of any evidence that in the real world they offer any benefits over the cheaper product.

quote:



If it's opinion, it should be stated as such.




Unless it's a logical conclusion from what's already been presented.

There's a difference beween a statement of fact, a logical conclusion from those facts, and an opinion.

quote:



Furthermore, merely suppling a list of web sites or SAE papers, that may or may not be immaterial, accomplishes nothing.


It's more than the other party provided.

If you can't look it up or don't want to, that's another matter.

I don't think copyright law permits posting them verbatim.

But, on the topic of logic, opinion, and facts you did post the following:

quote:



I agree that companies should be more clear.
I think they assert meeting API specifications. I take this to mean they independently ran the same ASTM and/or sequence tests as the API; however, they chose not to pay for the use of their service symbol "donut".


I know for a fact that at least two of the companies out there that are not licensees but suggest using their lubes for "API Service SL" do not meet API specifications. In particular, they contain a higher level of a metallic additive than the API allows.

The payments to the API cover the cost of operating the API and its compliance program, which involves testing actual products and seeking corrections if the products fail.

If companies weren't trying to confuse buyers, I'd expect either no reference to the API (which is how Mobil deals with Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30), or something like this:

"This lubricant is not certified under the applicable API requirements for service (fill in the blank). We believe it (exceeds, fails to meet, may or may not) meet those requirements. In the event that you use this lubricant in a vehicle under a warranty which specifies an API service (fill in the blank), we (will, won't) be responsible for the consequences."
 
quote:

Originally posted by Brian Reid:

But, on the topic of logic, opinion, and facts you did post the following:

quote:



I agree that companies should be more clear.
I think they assert meeting API specifications. I take this to mean they independently ran the same ASTM and/or sequence tests as the API; however, they chose not to pay for the use of their service symbol "donut".


I know for a fact that at least two of the companies out there that are not licensees but suggest using their lubes for "API Service SL" do not meet API specifications. In particular, they contain a higher level of a metallic additive than the API allows.

The payments to the API cover the cost of operating the API and its compliance program, which involves testing actual products and seeking corrections if the products fail.

If companies weren't trying to confuse buyers, I'd expect either no reference to the API (which is how Mobil deals with Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30), or something like this:

"This lubricant is not certified under the applicable API requirements for service (fill in the blank). We believe it (exceeds, fails to meet, may or may not) meet those requirements. In the event that you use this lubricant in a vehicle under a warranty which specifies an API service (fill in the blank), we (will, won't) be responsible for the consequences."


You have to be careful with the word "certified" because only the particular oils with the starburst are certified. The ones with the donut only are only appvroved to meet the specs that API has set forth. Whatever it means to be "certified" and display the starburst I have no idea.
 
quote:

But something that comes in granular form doesn't sound like a candidate for the base of a fully formulated motor oil.

IMHO, that is a suprising statement. As a fuel engineer you should know the answer to that question, assuming engineers take enough chemistry these days to know the difference between the various phases of chemicals.

Let's take an example: When the VII oelfin copolymer arrives (OCP), it is basically a block of rubber, being made from polyisobutylenes of very high molecular weights. To transform it into an additive, one heats it and then dissolves it in any number of suitable solvents, from light mineral oils to cycloaliphatics. So I could say, gee, I don't want that in my oil cause it looks like rubber. But chemistry further transforms it into a useful additive to keep your oil from thinning at high temps.

Most additives and base oils, including esters for formulating, are shipped in liquid form for immediate blending. Some customers may require additives and other components to be shipped in powder or crystal form because they have chemists who make special recipes for their special application, such as possibly printing machinery. But 99% of all base oils and additives are shipped in liquid form.


Now some very good scientific sources that I rely on are found in the Journal of Synthetic Lubricants and a number of texts, one of them being Synthetic and High-Perfromance Functional Fluids, edited by Ronald Shubkin [PAO and Friction Modfier chemist and tribologist (PhD) for Ethyl Corporation]. Another one is the CRC handbook text, Handbook of Lubrication and Tribbology, Vol. III, edited by E. Richard Booser, Chemist and Tribologist (PhD) of Pennsylvania State University.

[Now unless you are a chemist or formulator, I wouldn't recommend rushing out and purchasing these books; they cost upwards of $275 each].

I will quote some info and then attempt to put into laymens terms. In order to do so, I will simply say R1, R2, R3 for the respective references.

R1, R2: Hydrolytic Stability:
"The hydrolysis of the ester, that is to say, their cleavage into an alcohol and an acid, has been the subject of many discussions in the past. However, this reaction has proved less disadvantageous in practice than had originally been feared. Ester lubricants must be hydrolytically stable because they are exposed to humid atmospheres during use and and come into contact with appreciable quantitites of mouisture in many applications. The hydrolytic stability of esters depend on two main features: processing and molecular geometry.
Acid value
degree of esterification,
catalyst used during esterification.

"Esters have to have a low acid value, a very high degree of esterification, and low ash level before the effects of molecular geometry will begin to assert themselves.
Molecular geometry can affect hydrolytic stability in several ways....."

"The hydrolytic stability of neopolyols can generally be regarded as good, and superior to that of dibasic esters."

Translation: Hydrolitic stability is not a problem today, and esters are today designed to be stable in the presence of moisture and acids, by their molecular engineering.

R1, R2: Elastomer Compatibility:

"Elastomers [synthetic rubbers as in seals] that are brought into contact with liquid lubricants will undergo an interaction with the liquid that is diffusing through the polymer network. There are two possible kinds of interaction: chemical interaction and physical interaction... Chemical interactions of elestomers with esters are rare."

Translation: The polymer network here is the polymer of the seal material. Interactions of seal materials with esters for lubricant oils are rare. That's why lubricants are tested for seal leakage in machines.

R1, R2: Polyols (Polyolesters): (general Information)

"Polyols are made by reacting multifuntional alcohols with a monofunctional acid....They are, however, much more stable than diesters, and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. A general rule of thumb is that a polyol is thoguht to be 40-50 C more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much more lower coefficients of friction values than those of both PAO and mineral oil. In general, polyol esters based on TMP or or PE give lower values [of friction] than diesters."

For those just tuning in, there are three major polyol esters: pentaerythritol esters, di-pentaerythritol esters, Tri, Qantinary-pentaerythritol esters, Trimethyl Propane esters (TMP), and Neopentylglycol esters (NPE). A fairly new one is the TME ester discussed earlier. All are very hydrolitically, thermally, and elastomerically stable.


On the topic of metal loss by various fluids:

From Lubrication Engineering, Volume 35, Table 4, Bench oxidation tests for steel, aluminum, copper, and lead catalyst, 163 C, 10 hours;

A 4 cSt mineral oil by itself shows a lead loss of 201 milligrams,
a 4 cSt PAO by itself shows a lead loss of 561 mg,
a 5 cSt alkylated aromatic (AN) shows a lead loss of 558 mg,
a 5.1 cSt dibasic ester shows alead loss of 11 mg,
and a 4 cSt polyol ester shows a lead loss of 40 mg.

So this oxidation test contradicts the one shown by Primus.

In the same paragraph of R4, "Proper additive selection is necessary to obtain acceptable engine oils from both mineral oils and synthetic base stocks."

In other words, whatever base oil you use, proper additive selection must be "tuned" to the type of base stock or mix of base stocks you are using.

[ August 07, 2004, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:

In other words, whatever base oil you use, proper additive selection must be "tuned" to the type of base stock or mix of base stocks you are using.

Bingo! I think thats the answer right their, IMHO. Thanks for posting this MK.
cheers.gif


Their just seems to be so many ways/additives to formulate an oil. Look at Shell using a Grp III/PAO/Ester blend in F1.
shocked.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top