Is it less civil on BITOG, or is it just me?

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In reality BiTOG is pretty darn civil.



There is a certain sports board that I no longer go to for that reason and the #@$%! didn't even involve me, I just got tired of looking at it. A couple mods broke off and started their own board, which is more tightly moderated. Profanity still abounds but the personal attacks get nipped. BITOG is real mild by comparison.
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Maybe we should have a test that would allow people into the "Non-Noob" section. It would have questions like;

1. What is better, thick or thin oil.
2. Why is Mobil 1 so noisy?
3. Would you by Castrol Syntec even though they use Grp III.
4. Are automakers specifying 5W20 because of CAFE?
5. What is better SM or SL oil..

Oh, nevermind. There are no simple answers, that is why we are here.

As far as questions being asked over and over again. The amount of posts would drop by 99% if you could not ask a question that had already been asked.
 
It is also really fun to see some of the noobs posts....

"I have been changing the oil in my cars for thirty years, so I know what I am talking about. Pennzoil has wax in it and will gum up your engine. So, DONT USE PENNZOIL!"
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When I joined approximately 2.5 years ago it was because I genuinely was interested in the science of lubrication. I naively assumed that the board consisted primarily of people that worked in the field and had actual working knowledge about oil.Sadly that is not the case. Yes there are some genuine experts that are highly trained and some that are self taught that post.




This site has taught me to re-think my views of lubrication in general and I'm grateful for that. I have learned much and I now apply those principles. But this statement bugs me. I don't have a Piled High and Deep after my name, I only have 74 posts, and I'm not (yet) a site supporter. So if I interpret your statement correctly I have nothing to offer in the way of knowledge or experience? I read this site everyday. Yes, I've noticed lately a general decline in civility. IMHO the offenders should be dealt with on an individual basis. But to lump the "non-experts" as a reason for a site decline is just plain unfair.


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It has become increasingly frustrating to wade through the endless topics about which oil smells best and who makes Super Tech in order to find the ocassional piece of worthwhile information. How many Havoline vs GTX or Pennzoil vs Valvoline topics have to be posted before someone stops asking questions that can't be answered?




I have a better solution. Rather than fussing over repeat questions simply and gently ask the poster to do a search and see if that answers their question. And if it doesn't then you're welcome to post a follow up.


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We have posters that want to be taken seriously when they ask which oil to run in their BMW but they type like a 12 year old girl sending her boyfriend an instant message.




Agreed, can't stand trying read something that looks like gibberish. But again, not everyone has the same level of writing/reading skills.


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I believe way too many people overstep their ability by their attempts to "analyze" or "interpret" every UOA and give their recomendations.




Maybe. I have no opinion here.

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Auto Unions suggestion of a NOOB status is one of the best ideas I've seen here recently.




I think that's a terrible idea. I've seen sites run this way. If you ain't part of the "in crowd" you forever remain a noob.


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With 16,000 members on a board that has been around for 5 years why would a new member think they could possibly say something that hasn't been said before? My .02 cents worth from a cranky, disgruntled member that has seen the quality of what used to be an outstanding board decline.





I'm sorry Old Man, but this just smacks of snobbery to me. You honestly think that no new members can offer anything new to the site? If you do this site is doomed. A forum grows and prospers by the diversity of it's members. If the "establishment" feels that new members can't offer anything fresh or enlightening then why join up?




A thread about civility and I get called an old man and a snob. Oh well I've been called worse.
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As to a couple of your points. Yes I think people like you (and I) that don't have half of the alphabet at the end of our names can make valuable contributions IF they are based on our pesonal experiences and lessons learned. Not on something that you (or I) "heard" or "read somewhere".
As to the search function I'm sure you've read questions that are answered like this: "Try the search function,it's your friend". Followed by "I did but didn't have any luck".Followed by someone posting 3 or 4 links they found using the search function that answered the question.The search function on this board is a little cumbersome but it does work. Almost every question asked daily has been asked before. Including the ever popular Brand X vs Brand Y polls. "Why is Mobil 1 noisy"? And the relative newcomer, "Is Mobil 1 all group3"?
I'm sorry if I came off as an elderly snob. I'm only 51.I'm really not a snob but I am cranky and short on tolerance for people that act like they know more than they do.Like new members that can't even spell tribologist but think they are one because they've "lurked" here for a few weeks.I think it is dangerous to be giving advice on something as important as auto maintenance when your only training is what you've picked up on a message board.
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I offer my services as Moderator for the Noob Forum, a "Nooberator" of sorts. I actually could se it working for the reasons I mentioned. It would allow people to ask the "dumb" questions without feeling inhibited, give newer members a place to make friends and set a respectfull tone. It's not outright snobbery as some claim, the difference with BitOG verses say a ....sports Forum is that the level of knowledge required to fully participate in Tribology discussion is ~rare~ among the General Public whereas Joe Schmoe could actually be an expert on sports without leaving home or spending time on the Forum reading or searching. Seriously, how far can you get on BitOG w/o reading or searching HERE?
So, the normal progression when people find the site is they come with a easy question, ask it and then they either don't like the answer and argue or actually go read archived posts further....then they take some time and "test" their aquired knowledge by- helping out Noobs. Eventually, after some interaction with Sr members, they learn the ropes and become good members with their own skills. What I proposed mirrors the normal progression of events, but with a higher degree of control....which might inspire members to show some self-control and respect for th Forum in general. Nothing wrong with people coming and just reading, this encourages that. It's not a race to see how many members can be registered either. A number of people might register, but not post anyway BECAUSE of the tension.
A lot of problems arise with Noobs posting on the OT Forum as well, the "Noobville Option" will keep OT cleaner and more civil. Am I missing something?
 
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A thread about civility and I get called an old man and a snob. Oh well I've been called worse.
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As to a couple of your points. Yes I think people like you (and I) that don't have half of the alphabet at the end of our names can make valuable contributions IF they are based on our pesonal experiences and lessons learned. Not on something that you (or I) "heard" or "read somewhere".
As to the search function I'm sure you've read questions that are answered like this: "Try the search function,it's your friend". Followed by "I did but didn't have any luck".Followed by someone posting 3 or 4 links they found using the search function that answered the question.The search function on this board is a little cumbersome but it does work. Almost every question asked daily has been asked before. Including the ever popular Brand X vs Brand Y polls. "Why is Mobil 1 noisy"? And the relative newcomer, "Is Mobil 1 all group3"?
I'm sorry if I came off as an elderly snob. I'm only 51.I'm really not a snob but I am cranky and short on tolerance for people that act like they know more than they do.Like new members that can't even spell tribologist but think they are one because they've "lurked" here for a few weeks.I think it is dangerous to be giving advice on something as important as auto maintenance when your only training is what you've picked up on a message board.
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I agree with everything you said. In regards to the search function though, I went through this with the mods on another forum. The thing to remember is that there are a lot of different levels of computer users out there. There are some who are doing well to turn the computer on and somehow connect to the internet. So for these people, using a search engine is difficult at best. I am NOT trying to be snobish or putting anyone down, I am simply pointing out the facts. I have worked in the computer field for many years, and see this on a daily basis.

I have worked on cars for about 40 years. I don't consider myself an expert on anything. I've learned a lot here. The fact that I've changed oil in vehicles literally hundreds of times does not make me an "expert" on oil. I could teach a 8 year old to change the oil!

I think we could all use the reminder to be a little more civil and nice to each other - (myself included).
 
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Yup, the weather is so werid this year even astronauts are fighting.

I am no expert in oil, that's why I haven't had much post after like 2 years here. I did notice a lot more arguments here, but like others said, there are worse fourms. I still enjoy reading and learning here, and occationally contribute when I can.

By the way, are you guys sure Mobil1 isn't the best oil in the world? I heard from my mechanic at Jiffy Lube that it's the same oil used in Jay Leno's chin.
 
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I think a lot of people are cranky because it's been so cold all across most of North America the last few weeks. I know I've been a lot more cranky since our weather got so much colder! I'll cheer up once our temps finally go above freezing again!




That's a fact! My Harley keeps calling me and I can't answer...
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Well, despite my original question, I still love this site. I literally learn something new every day, usually numerous things. And perhaps more importantly, I'm made to *think* about things, and sometimes it changes my mind or causes me to look at things in a whole new light.

I try hard not to give too much *advice* because I don't necessarily feel qualified. I will share my *opinion* and *experiences* from time to time, but I try not to use too many absolutes, e.g. "always", "never", "best", "worst", etc.

Oh, and I like to ask a lot of questions! And I do a LOT of reading, research, and searches here usually *before* I ask a question, fwiw.

But all in all, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, this thread was not about "what" we communicate, it was about "how" we communicate. Oh, and a well-placed joke and a little friendly sarcasm can go a long way if used properly.
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All of this, as always, is IMHO. (See?)

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I fixed a dryer and a PC and gave myself a vasectomy all in one week thanks to this site. OK so I made the vasectomy part up (and did without using any potty humor).
 
I am new here but was put in my place on another forum when a guy with 30 years of experience debating gear oil told me about his Minnesota "farm rated" GL5 gear lube for $1.79 a quart from the farm supply... was so speechless I couldn't stop laughing....dog gone it...$1.79??????
 
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It helps to not have an opinion. I know which oils a good and which oils are total garbage, but I sure as heck am not going to tell you.
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Why not?

We would love to see your "Best List" and your "Worst List" for dino and another for synthetic.

C'mon - give us your Top-10 in each.
 
What about all the so called experts that write a few posts claiming to be some expert and then disappear ??
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They claim to have some 'inside' info that is top secret, but can't go into detail or prove what they posted.
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People need to stop posting dumb Questions like this...

"I drive 10 miles a day. Do you think 5w20 Redline Oil with a Redline Oil filter and a high flow Redline air filter provide enough protection for my (fill in the make & Model)."
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I see questions like this posted 100 times per week on BITOG. Whats wrong with using the search button at the top of the page ???
 
The best thing about BitOG is not learning about oil, it's about learning a logical METHOD to analyze a subject.

It's like my explaination about cars to the teens in my family- I don't really care what ~kind~ of car they drive when they come to see me, but I force them to look at and think about the subject of cars as objectively as possible. So, picking out a car and the maintenance is an EXERCISE in RATIONALITY. The same logical methodology, once mastered, can be applied to other areas of life with a positive result. The car or the oil is just a model or example or device to learn and pracitce rational thought and analysis. That's the point, and oil is a good ~medium~ for learning.

Not to get all Zen on everyone....but I do have an appointment in NYC to speak to the Zen Master (as part of my court-ordered therapy). PM me with any questions.
 
From my history on the internet, BITOG is THE most friendly and civil forum I have found. In every other board there are straight out wars on the forums, discussion fall by the wayside to vulgarity laced shouting matches at each other written solely in text.

My pet peeve is this "IM Speak" nonsense. I try my hardest not to do it, but most folks I know are doing it. It bugs me. I can understand it on cellphones with limited keyboards. but online with a full keyboard....type the stinkin letters. "b4", "sum1","r u" just show limited intelligence to me.
 
I think one of the main problems on other forums where things get nasty is poor forum moderation and management. If the powers-that-be refuse to stop the bickering, why should the forum members conduct themselves in a decent manner?

I've seen too many forums where the mods are directly involved in the flame wars. Having an opinion and trying to direct the conversation is one thing, but when a thread gets out of hand, it needs to be shut down. Otherwise anarchy reigns supreme.

On forums where the membership is younger and immature, a strong mgmt team is critical. Here at BITOG the membership is older and reasonably grown up, so the childish antics are uncommon compared to other forums. Plus there seems to be enough mgmt staff to cover all the bases.

Trolls and troublemakers need to be dealt with swiftly. I don't care if they have 10 posts or 10,000. They need to be engaged publicly and privately. If they won't change their tune, a time out or permaban is called for.

As a forum gets bigger, the overall quality of posts and discussions decreases. That can frustrate senior members who have discussed the same topics many times. I see no way to improve or change this. Either a forum generates new blood in the form of new members, or its gets stale and dies on the vine. Sometimes a little time away can help bring a new perspective, especially if you've been involved with the same forum on a daily basis.

These places are like little virtual communities. Many of the same problems crop up here as they do in real life. It takes a solid team of officials along with "residents" who want to be involved in the community to make this a well run forum. Problems will increase with membership - it's how they're dealt with that makes or breaks a forum.
 
There will always be flame wars on forums. that's half the fun for some people. I know that I sometimes argue alot but only because it upsets me that every post about a domestic vehicle is usually followed by a foolish and uneccessary insult agaist the company or vehicle. There is no reason for this, if someone wants to discuss the new g8 or saturn aura or whatever let them discuss it. I know alot of people feel the same way I do but are tired of arguing with these rude posters.
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I think sometimes the problem is boredism; honestly. That could be the reason for the rudeness as well as the *stupid* questions.

Think about it, there isn't a single question in this whole forum that hasn't been asked before, SEVERAL times before, or researched and researched, - at least the ones involving oil & filters anyway.

I consider the mechanical/maintenance and tire threads to be different in the fact that not one particular question matches the question you may have.

I sometimes wonder if the oil/filter recommendation forums are pointless, I mean, there is a lot of fantastic information - but, there lies the point, honestly speaking how much more research from anyone of us can actually occur in the posting of any questions/answers in the oil recommendation forum that hasn't already been researched, tried, and tested?

If your car calls for 5w-20, use it; if it's noisey on this oil, try another; if it's using excessive oil, try a thicker viscosity.

What I'm saying is there really isn't any information or ground we haven't covered, just the same information over and over because it IS in fact present already in the questions/answers given, and I think is proving to be boring/tiresome so maybe people are posting questions a tad differently to see if any new research/experience comes about.

Also, who would qualify as an expert; I'd say over 85% of the members are expert by personal experiences or trial/error over the course of many years.

Yes, I do agree with the rudeness getting a little out of hand, along with those that believe they are 100% right simply because their car prefers something different then the next guy who wants to use something different then him.
 
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