Does oil freeze?????

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i do realize yea every thing will freeze at a certain point,
i juess i should have stated that in my opening post.




Yes, you should have stated an actual temperature range. Also, "normal winter temps" vary widely throughout the globe.

What is the word "juess"?




You don't know MR. spell check????
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I have some experience with hydraulic lubes and I have done a lot of pour point testing, in my experience in most cases I have seen oil is what I would call frozen 3-4 degrees C below its pour point, and will crystazlize there as well if it has any waxes. By frozen I mean in the testing apparatus the thermometer immersed in the oil is tough to pull out, and when it does it leaves a divot in the oil with oil from the divot stuck to the thermometer. SO if your oil lists a PP of -40 I would say based on my experience it would be what I call frozen at -45 to -42C. One true way to tell would be to run a DSC/DMS from -100 to 25 or so and get the glass transition temperature. But yes it freezes closer to the PP than most realize.




you're right on the money here
that's why the Army uses 0W20 instead of the usual 15W40 for their -60F arctic development testing
 
I was watching the history channel a while back, and it was a program about combat on the Russian Front. In the winter of 1941, it got so cold (we're talking 40 below zero, I think), that the Germans could not start the engines in their tanks. Engine frozen up, literally. They had footage of German panzer troops starting small fires on the ground under the tank to thaw out the oil so they could get them started. So yeah, it can freeze in severe winter conditions. I would have been curious to know what kind of oil the Germans were using then. The Russians didn't seem to be suffering this kind of problem. Perhaps the Russians, more used to dealing with lubricating engines in such severe conditons had some different oils?
 
Paraffin wax has a viscosity of around 5-7 cSt at 100C, and freezes at maybe 60C, so in theory you could formulate a motor oil out of it that would freeze solid after the engine cooled off.
 
As defined by Fahrenheit hundreds of years ago, "normal" temperatures run between 0F & 100F. Therefore oil does not freeze at "normal" temperatures.
 
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I was watching the history channel a while back, and it was a program about combat on the Russian Front. In the winter of 1941, it got so cold (we're talking 40 below zero, I think), that the Germans could not start the engines in their tanks. Engine frozen up, literally. They had footage of German panzer troops starting small fires on the ground under the tank to thaw out the oil so they could get them started. So yeah, it can freeze in severe winter conditions. I would have been curious to know what kind of oil the Germans were using then. The Russians didn't seem to be suffering this kind of problem. Perhaps the Russians, more used to dealing with lubricating engines in such severe conditons had some different oils?




I think I saw the same program. IIRC, the Germans began using synthetic oil at some point during the war, since it would flow much better in sub-zero temps. Someone please correct me if I'm all wet on that.
 
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I was watching the history channel a while back, and it was a program about combat on the Russian Front. In the winter of 1941, it got so cold (we're talking 40 below zero, I think), that the Germans could not start the engines in their tanks. Engine frozen up, literally. They had footage of German panzer troops starting small fires on the ground under the tank to thaw out the oil so they could get them started. So yeah, it can freeze in severe winter conditions. I would have been curious to know what kind of oil the Germans were using then.


I doubt the oil in those tanks was frozen in a technical sense, just pretty thick.

Somewhere I heard that glass is not really frozen, but actually suffers creep, or at least glass in olden days, and that after many years it would be thicker at the bottom than at the top of a window.

I'm glad rocks have a very high freezing temperature. Steel too for that matter.

Often people on this site say they don't want their oil stash to freeze, meaning to experience temperatures at or below the freezing point of water, not that they actually think the oil would freeze.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, for what they are worth--and it's probably not worth much.
 
Most oil is very good now, but some viscosities and brands will get very thick when it's really cold out. It doesn't 'freeze' in the strict sense of the word, but won't perform right as it congeals, and can most certainly cause engine damage.
 
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As defined by Fahrenheit hundreds of years ago, "normal" temperatures run between 0F & 100F. Therefore oil does not freeze at "normal" temperatures.




Right...
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did i spell that right Mr.spell check??
 
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and will crystazlize there as well if it has any waxes.




Exactly why one should not use pennzoil in below 0 conditions. above 32 would be a better safety margin.
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.yes, that is sarcasm!
 
From a 6th grade science website:
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In order for things to freeze, the jiggling must slow down to allow strong bonds to form between them.




So, the question is, does something like this happen with oil and at what temperature?

It also begs the question (tongue in cheek), if my vehicle is going to be sitting for a long time in the cold without being run, should I go out a few times a day and jump up and down on the bumper to jiggle the oil?
 
Pour point depressants prevent crystallization...the strong bonds they are talking about. I doubt it 100% prevents crystals (not perfect) but largely does. As those additives break-down, more crystals could grow. This matters most with dino oils that have the most wax-forming crystals in them.
 
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Ever wonder what NASA uses to lube moving parts on their interplanetary satellites? It's hundreds of degrees below zero out there (like -400F). I'd suspect dry lubricants and fully self-lubricating components and designs.




ceramic & plastics
 
PPD prevent crystallization--not in my experience. There is no doubt they disrupt the formation of crystal networks and push the cloud/crystallization point downward, but if there is wax it will crystalize regardless of PPD at any level you will see in a formulated lubricant. Bruce is right on, in that I am calling that thick grease/taffy state frozen--technically I doubt it is "frozen" in so much as it is not glassy, but its viscosity is high enough that it isn't moving anywhere, and I doubt your car would start with it in such a state. If I get a chance I will add a oil sample to my next DSC run and see if it shows a crystalization point before -100C. Stay tuned.
 
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I was watching the history channel a while back, and it was a program about combat on the Russian Front. In the winter of 1941, it got so cold (we're talking 40 below zero, I think), that the Germans could not start the engines in their tanks. Engine frozen up, literally. They had footage of German panzer troops starting small fires on the ground under the tank to thaw out the oil so they could get them started. So yeah, it can freeze in severe winter conditions. I would have been curious to know what kind of oil the Germans were using then. The Russians didn't seem to be suffering this kind of problem. Perhaps the Russians, more used to dealing with lubricating engines in such severe conditons had some different oils?




I think I saw the same program. IIRC, the Germans began using synthetic oil at some point during the war, since it would flow much better in sub-zero temps. Someone please correct me if I'm all wet on that.




Sorry. Germans started to use synthetics due to the allies cutting of there crude supply. They tried to work around this by developing synthetics.
 
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I juess i don't now how to say this any clearer,

I'm talking normal winter temps here guy's




According to this page , the all-time Bad Axe low was -23F on 1/30/1951, which works out to -30C.

Pour point of Mobil SAE 30 is -15C.

Similar to someone just posted great links on cSt measurements, anybody want to post anything on pour points?
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There are two problems with oil as it gets colder. One the oil is too thick for the engine to crank and the car will not start. The other more dangerous is the oil is either too thick to flow to various parts of the engine or a vortex forms in the oil and air is pumped into the engine along with the oil causing damage. The SAE ratings on oil address both of these issues. An oil rated "OW" will start at -35C and flow to -40C. A 5 degree safety is included to hope the vehicle will not start if the oil will not flow. Pour point may be very misleading. It is possible although unlikely that an oil may have a low pour point but not flow well in the engine. The best advice is to look for the SAE rating appropriate for the lowest temperature your are likely to encounter during that oil change.
 
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