A4TDI- That's great! I think you've done well and eased a few minds, mine included. Do you think this will be well received by the folks who argued so strongly against this test?
PD VW TDI oil issue questions
- Thread starter Cujet
- Start date
- Status
I saw some recent data from an Amsoil Direct Jobber friend of mine in Texas, comparing the VW 505.01 rated, Amsoil 5w-40/AFL European oil, to their new 5w-40/DEO, CJ-4 rated diesel oil, in a high mileage (350k) Passat TDI. Both these analyses had about the same number of miles on the samples under the same conditions.
The DEO performed significantly better than the thinner AFL formulation - particularly in terms of bearing and ring/cylinder wear, but also in terms of valvetrain wear, ie Fe levels. The DEO also had a significantly higher TBN remaining and showed no thickening, even with a soot concentration of 1.5%.
I have every reason to believe that the Amsoil 5w-40/DEO would also outperform the VW 505.01 rated, Amsoil European oil in a VW Pumpe Duese engine, since the valvetrain loads are even higher (narrower cam lobes), and a thicker lube is even more critical...
For comparison:
AFL, HT/HS is 3.7 Cp @ 150C,
DEO, HT/HS is 4.2 Cp @ 150C
The DEO performed significantly better than the thinner AFL formulation - particularly in terms of bearing and ring/cylinder wear, but also in terms of valvetrain wear, ie Fe levels. The DEO also had a significantly higher TBN remaining and showed no thickening, even with a soot concentration of 1.5%.
I have every reason to believe that the Amsoil 5w-40/DEO would also outperform the VW 505.01 rated, Amsoil European oil in a VW Pumpe Duese engine, since the valvetrain loads are even higher (narrower cam lobes), and a thicker lube is even more critical...
For comparison:
AFL, HT/HS is 3.7 Cp @ 150C,
DEO, HT/HS is 4.2 Cp @ 150C
For the nay-sayers this won't change a thing. My guess is that they'll simply say that I haven't gone enough miles yet for damage to occur.
A4, you need to test it to a million miles before anyone here will believe you. However, I do believe your results, they mirror mine! I will say no more.
Chris
Chris
I don't think it's anyone here who's having trouble believing it...
I went to an oil distributor down from the street from where I work and they can get me Q Diesel Plus Synthetic Blend for $33.90/ case (5.65/qt). This oil is VW 505.01 approved. It is actually listed as such in VW Technical Bulletin 17 Nbr 05-01.
I have always used and had good results with QS oils. Someone tell me why I should not use this oil in my '06 TDI Jetta?
I have always used and had good results with QS oils. Someone tell me why I should not use this oil in my '06 TDI Jetta?
Regarding the "Q Diesel Plus Synthetic Blend"... It is probably a European import. Even the description "synthetic blend" suggests that it comes from a country where "synthetic" is only applied to true synthetic motor oils, i.e., Group 4 or 5 (or 6?)
The only possible objection I would make is this: the 505.01 spec changed a while back. Originally 505.01 oil also met 505.00. Now it must also meet 502.00. Based on my reading of numerous discussions, if you can get a 505.01-spec oil that also meets 502.00, that would be the way to go. The basestock is probably better, and the additive package might be better too.
The Quaker State product probably doesn't meet 502.00. You can use it, but it's probably not quite as good as some of the newer products.
The only possible objection I would make is this: the 505.01 spec changed a while back. Originally 505.01 oil also met 505.00. Now it must also meet 502.00. Based on my reading of numerous discussions, if you can get a 505.01-spec oil that also meets 502.00, that would be the way to go. The basestock is probably better, and the additive package might be better too.
The Quaker State product probably doesn't meet 502.00. You can use it, but it's probably not quite as good as some of the newer products.
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
Do you have a source for that info? I'm not questioning it, but it's news to me.
Valvoline Synpower 5W-40 meets VW 505.01 VW 505.00 and VW 502.00.
Last edited:
I can't remember if it's here or over at tdiclub. I'll look for it.
I did a little research and it seems that Q Diesel Plus SB is the same product as Shell Helix Diesel Plus VA 5W-40. Their Spec sheets and performance features & benefits wording are identical.
Acutually the specs are pretty good for the Q Diesel/Shell Helix. A pour point of -51 tells me that this is probally a group III synthetic. It's flash point is 226 C.
Elf DID Excellium 505.01 10w-40 only specs a flash point of 198 C.
I will do my first 5k oil change with Castrol TXT 505.01 and at 10k probaly go with the Q Diesel.
As Gunny Hitower would say:
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome
Acutually the specs are pretty good for the Q Diesel/Shell Helix. A pour point of -51 tells me that this is probally a group III synthetic. It's flash point is 226 C.
Elf DID Excellium 505.01 10w-40 only specs a flash point of 198 C.
I will do my first 5k oil change with Castrol TXT 505.01 and at 10k probaly go with the Q Diesel.
As Gunny Hitower would say:
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome
Moribundman,
Here are some tdiclub threads which discuss a new 505.01 spec (from July 2005, I believe) that supplanted the original spec from 1999. It appears that the hierarchy has changed, but so far it is only apparent from the new products which meet 502.00/505.01 where the old spec's hierarchy was 505.00/505.01 . No one has a VWAG document showing a new hierarchy.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1441851
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=150872
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=157824
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2003
- Messages
- 23,591
Stop looking for a hierachy. There is none. These specs are simply different specs that may be adjusted as time goes by. For example, VW 502.00 was changed in 2005 and is different from the VW 502.00 from 2004. The same thing goes for VW 505, which was also changed in 2005.
Commonly combined VW oil specs:
502 (2005), 505, 503.01
502, 505
501.01 (sort of defunct -- old engines only), 505
505.01, 502, 505 (2005)
504/507, 506.01, 506, 503, 505.01, 505, 502
(exception: R5 and V10 TDi PD engines until 12/2006 may use only 506 01- 506 00 – 503 00)
506.01, 506, 503
Approved viscosities include not only 5W-40, but for example:
506.01, 506, 503: 0W-30
504/507: are all 5W-30
501.01, 505: 15W-40, 15W-50
505: 10W-40
500, 505: 10W-40
502, 505: 5W-30, 10W-40
The above listed viscosities are based on Motul's VW approved oil list.
Commonly combined VW oil specs:
502 (2005), 505, 503.01
502, 505
501.01 (sort of defunct -- old engines only), 505
505.01, 502, 505 (2005)
504/507, 506.01, 506, 503, 505.01, 505, 502
(exception: R5 and V10 TDi PD engines until 12/2006 may use only 506 01- 506 00 – 503 00)
506.01, 506, 503
Approved viscosities include not only 5W-40, but for example:
506.01, 506, 503: 0W-30
504/507: are all 5W-30
501.01, 505: 15W-40, 15W-50
505: 10W-40
500, 505: 10W-40
502, 505: 5W-30, 10W-40
The above listed viscosities are based on Motul's VW approved oil list.
Quote:
Quote:
So you work for VW then? Maybe engineered the Pump Duesse injection system?
I mean you must have if you know the current 505.01 spec for PD's to be inadequate...wait whats that? You have no idea what your talking about, backyard engineering doesn't prove your right only ruins your credibility.
First off, VW "engineered" a terribly unreliable glow plug system, "engineered" a super duper automatic restricting intake manifold system on these cars, "engineered" electrical systems that are lucky to make it 2 years without something going haywire, "engineered" an engine that requires half the engine be disassembled every couple of years to replace a timing belt, "engineered" an entire persnickety high pressure fuel system that apparently eats cam lobes and requires special oil that was obsolete before it even came out, and you're going to tell me that VW has "engineered" an oil that without a doubt the best and only oil that can be used in these engines for maximum longevity? I don't even have to be a backyard engineer to see how many of you guys are being taken for a ride on this one.
Who said 505.01 was inadequate? Oh I am quite sure it is ADEQUATE to get your car to the end of warranty with the emissions systems still intact--just like VW wants it. I don't understand the blood war that the 5 numbers 505.01 invoke in people, and why the folks at tdiclub are so anal about it. Yes I know VW is finicky and people want to protect their warranty. Fine, can't blame anyone there.
But to believe that VW designed and spec'd this oil because it will result in maximum life of your engine is naive at best. OEMs are in the business to sell cars, and car parts. Their main concern when specifying a lubricant is avoiding warranty claims on too many cars by idiots using 5w-30 Pennzoil for 10K OCIs. Since emissions systems are warrantied, the must also protect them, which means reducing valuable antiwear additives in the oil to protect the cat. Then they do some testing on some oils that big companies submit (someone nailed it when they said "bribe" above) to get the approval on their bottle. If it works okay, they approve it, which may or may not be dependent on how much the oil co. is willing to pay to get their approval rights. My guess is VW gets royalty checks monthly from all their approval oils. Oil approvals are shady at best, and if you don't understand that OEMs are not specifying oils for maximum longevity of your vehicle and simply to cover their butts until warranty is up, then arguing with you is pointless because you've obviously bought into their propaganda.
Even the great UOAs on tdiclub from those using non 505.01 oils are met with skepticism and ridicule. All the "You'll lose your warranty, You'll smoke your cam lobes" reminds me of the little boy's mom/teacher/adults in the Christmas Story constantly telling him "You'll shoot your eye out."
I sure don't see what .01 oils have in them to make them such miracle combatants of accelerated cam wear, maybe it's German Mystery Juice? Or is it just the allure of the whole European/German thing?
Schaeffer's 9000 will never meet 505.01 because it is a true HDEO, and will never be mistaken for PCMOs like .01 oils might be. If the stress on oil is so high in a PD TDI, why do people insist that the low-add .01 oils are better? If you're protecting your warranty, fine, just say so and be done with it.
Really you wrote all that out, jeeze thanks.
Maybe you should turn in the VW if it is such a bother.
All that you prove above is you can't do preventive maintenance, glow plugs go out with age, done for US emissions blame EPA, jeez wow so mine should have failed what 4 times now?
Any car requires disassembly on a big scale to change a timing belt, I mean jeeze is this all you do? #@$%! to all your friends how life isn't fair?
Also again emissions, we don't have particulate filters or 3 way catalyst and the first generation of 505.01 had nothing to do with emissions. It was only after they tweaked the oil did it fall into a emissions friendlier category.
Your also acting like only 1 505.01 approved oil is available, there are tens of them. Recently my local dealer started getting in Elf Lubricants. That will be next to try on my list. Don't like the dealer's oil fine, find another one that is approved. I'm not saying Amsoil or Shaffers will kill a PD but if the dealer looked at their list and didn't see the oils on it. Well guess what creek your floating down? It isn't the shiny one...
Also interesting analogy there, didn't he actually shot his eye out? Ya I thought so.
One oil may have a weak additive pack, doesn't mean they all do just like in gas oils. Many oils process the standard nobody just bothers to look for them.
Also 1.9l have extremely little in common with a PSD or CAT so don't say what works for them works for this. It may work, doesn't mean it is the best or right one.
QUOTE: ""VW "engineered" a terribly unreliable glow plug system, "engineered" a super duper automatic restricting intake manifold system on these cars, "engineered" electrical systems that are lucky to make it 2 years without something going haywire, "engineered" an engine that requires half the engine be disassembled every couple of years to replace a timing belt, "engineered" an entire persnickety high pressure fuel system that apparently eats cam lobes and requires special oil that was obsolete before it even came out, and you're going to tell me that VW has "engineered" an oil that without a doubt the best and only oil that can be used in these engines for maximum longevity? I don't even have to be a backyard engineer to see how many of you guys are being taken for a ride on this one.""
This post has some serious truth to it! My 06 TDI has now left me stranded twice. Once, quite far from home. In fact, my car resembles those remarks! It now has a CK eng LT on, due, I am sure, to faulty, non robust components.
In light of the "facts" as I learn them, I will not likely keep the car past the warranty period.
Chris
This post has some serious truth to it! My 06 TDI has now left me stranded twice. Once, quite far from home. In fact, my car resembles those remarks! It now has a CK eng LT on, due, I am sure, to faulty, non robust components.
In light of the "facts" as I learn them, I will not likely keep the car past the warranty period.
Chris
I'll give you $12,500 cash for that POS, right now.
You are funny, Tornado. The car has kept it's value, as fuel prices climb. I paid less that 22 for it and I expect that it is worth a similar ammount.
I still like it very much and I keep thinking that I am working the bugs out. However, there are many who have had similar probs to mine, hence the poor reliability reports in major publications.
By the way, it left me stranded again! That is 3 times in 1 year. All for different problems. I now bring a tow rope with me!
It sure is good on the fuel economy vs. size scale.
I am monitoring the 2 cam lobes visible through the cap. There are wear marks I am not sure what to think about. On the intake lobe cam ramp just past the base circle there is an oval mark from side to side. It has a layered look. This is not an area known for high wear on most camshafts. Yet this cam seems to have some wear in this area. It cannot be felt with a metal scribe. So, at this point is is minor. 26K.
At some time before the warr expires, I will pull the valve cover and measure. It is my belief that the cam and followers are substandard on this engine. VW's fix is to require a special oil.
AND, no the cam lobes are not "tiny" by comparison to any modern engine. Nor are the seat pressures, RPM's or any other factor that might lead to problems.
Chris
I still like it very much and I keep thinking that I am working the bugs out. However, there are many who have had similar probs to mine, hence the poor reliability reports in major publications.
By the way, it left me stranded again! That is 3 times in 1 year. All for different problems. I now bring a tow rope with me!
It sure is good on the fuel economy vs. size scale.
I am monitoring the 2 cam lobes visible through the cap. There are wear marks I am not sure what to think about. On the intake lobe cam ramp just past the base circle there is an oval mark from side to side. It has a layered look. This is not an area known for high wear on most camshafts. Yet this cam seems to have some wear in this area. It cannot be felt with a metal scribe. So, at this point is is minor. 26K.
At some time before the warr expires, I will pull the valve cover and measure. It is my belief that the cam and followers are substandard on this engine. VW's fix is to require a special oil.
AND, no the cam lobes are not "tiny" by comparison to any modern engine. Nor are the seat pressures, RPM's or any other factor that might lead to problems.
Chris
- Status
Similar threads
