Title is inflammatory, but the article gives a decent overview of some main issues I thought:
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070501fa...e-the-poor.html
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070501fa...e-the-poor.html
why waste corn by making ethanol?
- Thread starter oilyriser
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Hey, in some countries, they even grow grain crops like corn, then harvest them and feed them to cattle. Cycle efficiency is hopeless, and the costs of all foodstuffs become higher.
Other countries turn prairie, (or at least grass) into protein.
The poor can't eat grass.
(reminds me of a joke I once read)
Other countries turn prairie, (or at least grass) into protein.
The poor can't eat grass.
(reminds me of a joke I once read)
I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there, if it indeed does happen.
By that time, the ethanol technology could have grown by leaps and bounds, so its manufacturing costs could have gotten considerably cheaper, and the fuel will still be cheaper. Just speculation.
What I'm doing right now is taking the difference between a tank of E85 and a tank of regular unleaded and parking that money in the bank. If and when E85 ever becomes close to the price of gasoline so as to convince me that it's no longer a value, I'll have plenty of extra "free" money squirreled away that can buy quite a bit of unleaded.
E85 gan give better mpg than gasoline if you have the right engine.
My favorite crazy idea is a popcorn rocket engine. You heat a chamber at the back of the car, and feed popcorn into it. The corn shoots out the back, propelling the car forward.
My favorite crazy idea is a popcorn rocket engine. You heat a chamber at the back of the car, and feed popcorn into it. The corn shoots out the back, propelling the car forward.
"Filling the 25-gallon tank of an SUV with pure ethanol requires over 450 pounds of corn -- which contains enough calories to feed one person for a year."
how stupid!
how stupid!
So let them eat cake!
At some point, enough fields will be in corn that a blight can develop spread from field to field, and wipe out the entire corn crop. It's just a matter of time and plant density until the corn diseases have enough chances to mutate into more virulent forms.
I don't see that happening, but I suppose it's possible.
I've read that ethanol can also be derived from sugar beets and yeild very well compared to corn. Sugarcane is probably the highest yeild crop for ethanol, but very few areas of the U.S. (if any) can support its long growing season and tropical environment. Maybe Florida and south Texas, but I don't know for sure.
I'm just rolling with the tide as far as the whole thing goes. If E-85 starts getting too expensive, then I'll go back to gasoline. Until then, I'll keep banking the savings every time I fill up.
I've read that ethanol can also be derived from sugar beets and yeild very well compared to corn. Sugarcane is probably the highest yeild crop for ethanol, but very few areas of the U.S. (if any) can support its long growing season and tropical environment. Maybe Florida and south Texas, but I don't know for sure.
I'm just rolling with the tide as far as the whole thing goes. If E-85 starts getting too expensive, then I'll go back to gasoline. Until then, I'll keep banking the savings every time I fill up.
perennial corn?
sugar cane - should be possible to select or genetically modify it so it will grow further north
sugar cane - should be possible to select or genetically modify it so it will grow further north
Check your mileage. Ethanol gets about 2/3 the mileage as does gasoline (ethanol is 35% by weight oxygen after all). Consumers Report did a study where E85 only got 72% the mileage of gasoline (10% ethanol). This equates to ethanol getting about 2/3 the mileage of 0% ethanol gasoline.
Sugar cane grows in Hawaii (Maui).
Ethanol requires as much (or more)energy to produce the ethanol than is contained in the ethanol. In other words, if one considers the ethanol refinery construction, tractors, fertilizer, irrigation, transportation, fermentation, distillation, etc for ethanol production and only used the produced ethanol as an energy source, you would still have to burn fossil fuels to make up the shortfall. The more ethenol we make the more energy we consume. Not a good deal.
Ethanol requires as much (or more)energy to produce the ethanol than is contained in the ethanol. In other words, if one considers the ethanol refinery construction, tractors, fertilizer, irrigation, transportation, fermentation, distillation, etc for ethanol production and only used the produced ethanol as an energy source, you would still have to burn fossil fuels to make up the shortfall. The more ethenol we make the more energy we consume. Not a good deal.
And Consumer Reports also said that Fram oil filters are the best ones of those they tested.
I've found that if CR wants something to do well, it does (read: advertising dollars, even though they claim they don't take bribes...Explain Fram and Turtle Wax) do well, and if they want it to bomb, it does.
The honest truth is that yes, E85 does produce less MPG than gasoline in the same vehicle. BUT...It's nowhere near the 2/3 mark that CR tries to make you think. I don't care what their numbers say...Real world MPG numbers on FFVs of various manufacturers aren't anywhere near the numbers they show. Case and point, my Explorer. EPA on gasoline is 15/20. Real world on E-85 is 12.1 on the low, and 17.4 on the high. Now, bear in mind, the 20 MPG EPA highway estimate is nowhere near what real-world Explorer owners are getting on gasoline. It's more like 17-18 with an easy foot. They've told me 20 MPG on the highway is nearly unattainable.
Another vehicle, my buddy's '02 Tahoe (I think this is the one CR tested) EPA rated at 12/17 on gasoline. Running E85 has shown a low of 10, and a high of 16. Running gasoline has rarely delivered MPG higher than 16 though!
Yet one more, my dad's '06 Dodge Ram, rated at 14/18 on gasoline. E85 mileage has been averaging 14-15 MPG. On gasoline, he averaged about 16.
So yes, there is a mileage loss, but it's so insignificant that it still makes sense to burn the much cheaper E85 in these vehicles.
Consumer Reports is the biggest rag of mis-information that anyone could read. Nothing more than cleverly hidden ad money coupled with some useless opinions and propaganda.
Amen to all that and thanks for some real world observation .
In my book anything domestically produced has an enormous cost advantage that opponents never mention and has numerous "potental side" benefits as well .
Depending where you read , somewhere between 50-80% ( probably old #s) of our DoD expenditures ( larger than the rest of the world combined ) go towards securing our overseas energy resources . This does not include "other related" expenditures ......
Last time I looked at it, it didn't appear that securing the cornfields of Illinois , Iowa and the rest of America would be quite so expensive , but hey , given present trends
Then there are some intriguing location specific possibilities for the energy needed in production - which also seem very secure .
Put another way , nobody really understands how much that gallon of gasoline really costs when all costs are honestly accounted for .
You can think of that as a multi dimensional observation .
I can't believe you guys are buying into this biofuel mess. Did everyone forget about acetaldehyde and acrolein? Acetaldehyde is created when ethanol is burned in a gasoline engine. It's from the burning gas hitting the cold cylinder wall. It's a respiratory tract irritant and known carcinogen . Acrolein is created from impure biodiesel when the burning gases hit the relatively cold cylinder wall. It's a severe respiratory irritant on par with tear gas, as well as a mutagen.
from above reference:
"Gasoline containing the oxygenate additives ethanol or ethy tert-butyl ether (ETBE), upon combustion, may result in increased acetaldehyde emissions."
"Acrolein is an intense irritant and displays a range of toxic effects, including cilia toxicity"
biodiesel emissions
Toronto has been putting biodiesel in its TTC buses, and whenever I get a whiff of the smoke from one of their stacks, I can smell the irritating smoke like when grease drips onto a hot barbecue.
Oil furnaces, because they don't suffer flame quenching, do not have this problem. You can burn a vegetable oil (SVO) mix in these, and save all the costs and energy of converting it to the methyl ester biodiesel.
from above reference:
"Gasoline containing the oxygenate additives ethanol or ethy tert-butyl ether (ETBE), upon combustion, may result in increased acetaldehyde emissions."
"Acrolein is an intense irritant and displays a range of toxic effects, including cilia toxicity"
biodiesel emissions
Toronto has been putting biodiesel in its TTC buses, and whenever I get a whiff of the smoke from one of their stacks, I can smell the irritating smoke like when grease drips onto a hot barbecue.
Oil furnaces, because they don't suffer flame quenching, do not have this problem. You can burn a vegetable oil (SVO) mix in these, and save all the costs and energy of converting it to the methyl ester biodiesel.
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