pscholte: what do you mean "Gold is indeed... Gold." ? Do you still believe it is a good product?
VOA's Gold vs Green
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TBN is a reflection of reserve alkalinity, from the calcium,magnesium,boron,sodium, etc, detergents/dispersants. In other words, it's the lubricants ability to neutralize organic acids and suspend/disperse solid contaminents that result from combustion.
All things being equal, a lubricant with a significantly higher TBN will last longer in service. However it will not necessarily provide better wear protection for normal service intervals. Levels of AW additives and detergent/dispersant additives must be CAREFULLY BALANCED to avoid problems with deposit formation and/or excessive wear.
All things being equal, a lubricant with a significantly higher TBN will last longer in service. However it will not necessarily provide better wear protection for normal service intervals. Levels of AW additives and detergent/dispersant additives must be CAREFULLY BALANCED to avoid problems with deposit formation and/or excessive wear.
This is typical Castrol bait and switch , come out with a product get a following then cheapen that product.I am HAPPY to say castrol has never gotten a penny of my money, and never will. Let me say this BRUCE 381 really knows his lubricants, so guys please dont *** him off we need people like him on this site. He did this all for free , and is not trying to sell you anything. There was a guy named CARPY on here who convinced a lot of people on this site that Mobil Drive Clean was group 111 base stock a lot of people fell for it ,and went out and purchased this junk . So dont get deceived by Castrol latest bait and switch. OH YEA
to BRUCE 381.
drums...,quote:
Originally posted by drums57:
This is typical Castrol bait and switch , come out with a product get a following then cheapen that product.I am HAPPY to say castrol has never gotten a penny of my money, and never will. Let me say this BRUCE 381 really knows his lubricants, so guys please dont *** him off we need people like him on this site. He did this all for free , and is not trying to sell you anything. There was a guy named CARPY on here who convinced a lot of people on this site that Mobil Drive Clean was group 111 base stock a lot of people fell for it ,and went out and purchased this junk . So dont get deceived by Castrol latest bait and switch. OH YEAto BRUCE 381.
I will give you credit for your audacity. You don't have a clue as to the accuracy of your statement and yet you make it with all the authority of an expert...which I call you out and tell you that you are not. I am standing by for your credentials. You take shots at Castrol every chance you get. You told the BITOG faithful that another member's car was louder with the Gold as if you had heard it personally even commenting that it was louder than with his previous oil. I don't believe you even knew that member. I debated whether or not to include this but you are so negatively confrontational and I so deeply question your integrity that I will. You told Boaz in another post that you were paralyzed and typed with a pencil in your mouth. How is it then that you would have occasion to spend/or nto spend money on Castrol in the future?
I just put the Gold GC in my 2.3L Mazda 3... and it definitely seems to be running pristine. A lot quieter than the Royal Purple 5w20 that was in it before, and also MUUUUCH smoother at higher RPM's.
I'll do a UOA after this 5,000mi run to see how well it works out... but I forsee a happy ending.
I'm a believer!
I'll do a UOA after this 5,000mi run to see how well it works out... but I forsee a happy ending.
I find the GC Cult to be fascinating. At least GC is based on some science - the Royal Purple Cult seemed to be based on color, and the nonsensical "science" of TV auto journalism.
My favorite is where they drain the "old" oil and then run a dyno on RP - this of course has no control mechanism at all, but the most obvious failing is that "fresh" oil often has some lighter oil factions carrying the add pack - these are pretty volatile, and "burn off" rather quickly (which is one mechanism that can allow excess ZDDP to foul cats, especially for the folks who change their oil every week). Then the tester run a dyno pull, and show a 5 HP gain, all of which is attributed to the superior lubricity of RP.
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My question on topic:
Were the Gold and Green tested both GF-4 spec?
Although I am unaware of any lab that can provide an analysis of the base oils, it would be interesting to see if there is a difference there as well.
My understanding is that in Europe, one cannot market a GIII base oil product as "full synthetic". So by the same successful defense that allowed Castrol to "cheapen" the term in the US and call its reformulated Syntec (which once had di-basic esters as part of its base oils) "synthetic", perhaps GC is Euro-spec Syntec that ends up here. It might even be an older formula being dumped on the NA market.
Green or Gold.
While I will not assail NA Castrol, and make my oil use decisions based on the best science and info available to me, I still do not like the "smell" of the whole Syntec saga. While any company is free to re-formulate its product and make changes at any time, at elast with cereal I can look at the ingredients. I used to use Syntec only, but even after Casttrol had won the right to label its GIII-based product "synthetic", Castrol North America's Customer Service told me in writing that Syntec's formula "had not changed", and that the esters were still in there. That was a complete faslehood, although the writer maqy not have known it, and perhaps there was at least 1 botttle somewhere in NA that had the old formula.
Thanks to Castrol, for many months (even years?), hastily formulated GIII's were served up as full syns by all the major oil companies, since Castrol NA was killing them on price (at one point Syntec was under $3/retail. Fortunately, nearly all the products ended up as quality synoils - certainly Castrol's did, and Motorcraft, Havoline, etc.
My favorite is where they drain the "old" oil and then run a dyno on RP - this of course has no control mechanism at all, but the most obvious failing is that "fresh" oil often has some lighter oil factions carrying the add pack - these are pretty volatile, and "burn off" rather quickly (which is one mechanism that can allow excess ZDDP to foul cats, especially for the folks who change their oil every week). Then the tester run a dyno pull, and show a 5 HP gain, all of which is attributed to the superior lubricity of RP.
************************************************
My question on topic:
Were the Gold and Green tested both GF-4 spec?
Although I am unaware of any lab that can provide an analysis of the base oils, it would be interesting to see if there is a difference there as well.
My understanding is that in Europe, one cannot market a GIII base oil product as "full synthetic". So by the same successful defense that allowed Castrol to "cheapen" the term in the US and call its reformulated Syntec (which once had di-basic esters as part of its base oils) "synthetic", perhaps GC is Euro-spec Syntec that ends up here. It might even be an older formula being dumped on the NA market.
Green or Gold.
While I will not assail NA Castrol, and make my oil use decisions based on the best science and info available to me, I still do not like the "smell" of the whole Syntec saga. While any company is free to re-formulate its product and make changes at any time, at elast with cereal I can look at the ingredients. I used to use Syntec only, but even after Casttrol had won the right to label its GIII-based product "synthetic", Castrol North America's Customer Service told me in writing that Syntec's formula "had not changed", and that the esters were still in there. That was a complete faslehood, although the writer maqy not have known it, and perhaps there was at least 1 botttle somewhere in NA that had the old formula.
Thanks to Castrol, for many months (even years?), hastily formulated GIII's were served up as full syns by all the major oil companies, since Castrol NA was killing them on price (at one point Syntec was under $3/retail. Fortunately, nearly all the products ended up as quality synoils - certainly Castrol's did, and Motorcraft, Havoline, etc.
I realize that I tend to try to find a way to rationalize what Castrol has done in regard to Group III, an incident that seems to have almost universal acceptance as a negative, greedy and "rape the consumer" activity. I won't try to convince any of you otherwise...I will ask you to consider this. Twice now, on this forum and based on my own experience with Shell TMO when I lived in Europe, I have heard people allude to the fact that Shell racing oils are Group III/Group X mixes, so: (1) Shell obviously thinks this is an excellent approach or that would not be the cutting racing formulation; one would expect the cutting edge formulae to be esters or PAO/ester mixes. (2) how much do you think Shell would charge you for a Group III mix racing oil...I bet it would be plenty. So what I am asking you to consider is this: (1) is a "trick" GroupIII/Group X mix (remember how "trick" SLX is and what Castrol is capable of) necessarily inferior to a Group IV/V combo and (2) is a "trick" Group III mix necessarily so much cheaper than the Group IV/V pairing meaning they are truly gouging everyone? It may turn out that what I am implying has no solid scientific foundation but are we SURE of that? All I ask is for people to consider the possiblities. Then, whatever decision you come to, honestly derived, then I say
PS ..and just to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR with everyone...I do not work for nor do I have the remotest connection to Castrol...except that I buy GC and BC...I can't even get them to send my decals!
PS ..and just to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR with everyone...I do not work for nor do I have the remotest connection to Castrol...except that I buy GC and BC...I can't even get them to send my decals!
Road Rage and pscholte make great points. I have read what pscholte has said about Shell racing oils being a Group III/V blend. I read this in Race Car Engineering Magazine. Don't know why, but that is what they have said. I think it's safe to say that adding some exotic esters to a group III is a good way to make a very good oil. I think this is how the Amsoil XL line is so good. It's the total package that counts. Additives are a huge factor as we all know. Schaeffer's products are examples of oils with inferior base oils that perform as good as any fully synthetic oil up to a certain mileage point. I'd really like to know more about the XOM article talking about Esters competing with anti-wear additives on the surface metal. Interesting. We are still a small minority of people among the rest of the world that really doesnt take this stuff all that serious and the big oil giants know that. It comes down to marketing and $$ most of the time, unfortunately.
"While I will not assail NA Castrol, and make my oil use decisions based on the best science and info available to me."
pscholte: I have no grudge against Castrol, and I think my comment quoted again above clearly states that I make decisions based on science and the info avilable from many sources, including the good people of BITOG Forums. I am also a Mech Eng and EE, and our R&D Lab gives access to some very sophisticated analysis tools, including MS's and GC's - at least as good as any of the labs cited here.
I have about 20 oils in my home "lab" right now, and some of it is Castrol 0w30 - German, Bulgarian, Argentine, it matters not to me.
Nor am I a base stock snob either - I have had excellent results with GII/GIV blends like LE 8130 for example, even though I was one of the first Red Line dealers on the East Coast (and still listed by them as part of my Corvette restoration side business).
So I think we are in agreement, substantively. I would use boar mucous in my car if it posted a good UOA!!! **** thing is those boars do not want to give it up lightly.
pscholte: I have no grudge against Castrol, and I think my comment quoted again above clearly states that I make decisions based on science and the info avilable from many sources, including the good people of BITOG Forums. I am also a Mech Eng and EE, and our R&D Lab gives access to some very sophisticated analysis tools, including MS's and GC's - at least as good as any of the labs cited here.
I have about 20 oils in my home "lab" right now, and some of it is Castrol 0w30 - German, Bulgarian, Argentine, it matters not to me.
Nor am I a base stock snob either - I have had excellent results with GII/GIV blends like LE 8130 for example, even though I was one of the first Red Line dealers on the East Coast (and still listed by them as part of my Corvette restoration side business).
So I think we are in agreement, substantively. I would use boar mucous in my car if it posted a good UOA!!! **** thing is those boars do not want to give it up lightly.
quote:
Originally posted by Road Rage:
"While I will not assail NA Castrol, and make my oil use decisions based on the best science and info available to me."
pscholte: I have no grudge against Castrol, and I think my comment quoted again above clearly states that I make decisions based on science and the info avilable from many sources, including the good people of BITOG Forums. I am also a Mech Eng and EE, and our R&D Lab gives access to some very sophisticated analysis tools, including MS's and GC's - at least as good as any of the labs cited here.
I have about 20 oils in my home "lab" right now, and some of it is Castrol 0w30 - German, Bulgarian, Argentine, it matters not to me.
Nor am I a base stock snob either - I have had excellent results with GII/GIV blends like LE 8130 for example, even though I was one of the first Red Line dealers on the East Coast (and still listed by them as part of my Corvette restoration side business).
So I think we are in agreement, substantively. I would use boar mucous in my car if it posted a good UOA!!! **** thing is those boars do not want to give it up lightly.
I'm not sure I could go the boar's mucous route, unless, of course, it were a boar from the Black Forest or maybe even the woods around Neuschwanstein.......
Please consider the following. Since some of us think that The Gold could be Castrol LongTec, a 229.5 oil let's assume it will be similar in formulation to other 229.5 oils. If you do a comparison of The Gold to Elf 229.5 these similar numbers appear: The Gold TBN (D2896)=~9.0; Elf Excellium 229.5 TBN (D2896)=9.6; The Gold VI=166; Elf Excellium 229.5 VI=160. Viscosity at 100ºC is close too. Unrefined science, yes, but better than believing a totally unsubstantiated, "Well, Castrol has gone and slipped us a 'Mickey' again." I realize a lot stronger case must be built before we have any assurances, but it is a start.
If the 0w-30 still meets the A3/B4, BMW/LL-01, MB 229.5, VW 502.00, etc specifications, it's going to be an excellent product, regardless of how the additive chemistry was changed.
The only difference I see is that the newer Castrol does not have the TBN reserve of the old stuff. So I wouldn't go off and try running it > 10,000 miles , particularly in any V-8 application with a small sump.
I still think you'll see MUCH lower valve train wear with the new GC, than with the GF-4 version of Mobil 1 - particularly in large displacement, pushrod V-6's and V-8's.
Tooslick
The only difference I see is that the newer Castrol does not have the TBN reserve of the old stuff. So I wouldn't go off and try running it > 10,000 miles , particularly in any V-8 application with a small sump.
I still think you'll see MUCH lower valve train wear with the new GC, than with the GF-4 version of Mobil 1 - particularly in large displacement, pushrod V-6's and V-8's.
Tooslick
If the only difference is in TBN and the base oil is still very "trick" could it be good to get the gold and spike it with some VSOT to raise the TBN and give a healthy load of moly too? I ask because the Green was all but gone when I found this place and I only have two changes worth and I'm changing four cars.
Isn't there some undesirable effect from having a bunch of magnesium in the oil?
Amsoil uses a lot of Magnesium... so it can't be that bad.
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