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Federal Hydra Shok handgun round. Anything more powerful?
- Thread starter jmacmaster
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You know I like controlled expansion bullets as a general rule! What I really like though is nice heavy bullet traveling at a fast speed. Nothing stops a man like a 310 grain 44Mag! The 45 long colt was a man stopper in the old west! The 45-70 man stopper. 30-30 man stoper, hollow point 45ACP man stopper,357 magnum man stopper etc......
Any time I hear someone mention recall as a reason for useing a cartridge that is not that effective I break out the B.S. meter! My 125lb wife can shoot a 44 Mag all day long. She is not overly muscular and is not by any means tough. So their is no excuse for any man or women that exceeds that weight to have any issue with a man stopper if they are willing to put in the trigger time. Another thing I find amazeing is that even with wimpy cartridges it seems that most LEO's can not hit what they are shooting at.
Do not get me wrong I have no proplem with small cartridges especialy for carry use by average citizens! I just find it amuseing when you look at how seldom police fire their weapon would use recoil as the primary concern we selecting a cartridge!
Another thing to is why a pistol and shotgun? How much good did that do the boys in blue in California a few years back when they ran into armored bank robers? Makes much more sense to use a short assult rife. This would do two thing's first with the longer site radius and barrel the rifle is naturaly a more accurate weapon then a handgun. Second a rifle cartridge is going to penatrate body armor and car doors much better. Third it would effectively take the place of a pistol and shotgun in many ways.
If someone has to use a wepon as a tool it should be the best tool he can get his hands on. No one wants to hit center of mass and have the perp keep comeing!
Any time I hear someone mention recall as a reason for useing a cartridge that is not that effective I break out the B.S. meter! My 125lb wife can shoot a 44 Mag all day long. She is not overly muscular and is not by any means tough. So their is no excuse for any man or women that exceeds that weight to have any issue with a man stopper if they are willing to put in the trigger time. Another thing I find amazeing is that even with wimpy cartridges it seems that most LEO's can not hit what they are shooting at.
Do not get me wrong I have no proplem with small cartridges especialy for carry use by average citizens! I just find it amuseing when you look at how seldom police fire their weapon would use recoil as the primary concern we selecting a cartridge!
Another thing to is why a pistol and shotgun? How much good did that do the boys in blue in California a few years back when they ran into armored bank robers? Makes much more sense to use a short assult rife. This would do two thing's first with the longer site radius and barrel the rifle is naturaly a more accurate weapon then a handgun. Second a rifle cartridge is going to penatrate body armor and car doors much better. Third it would effectively take the place of a pistol and shotgun in many ways.
If someone has to use a wepon as a tool it should be the best tool he can get his hands on. No one wants to hit center of mass and have the perp keep comeing!
I have not kept up on ammo developments the past few years, but the Hydrashock was a proven design and has led the pack in many calibers. I don't know if the book is still available, but a couple police officers by the names of Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow did a study of various calibers involved in police and civilian shootings and determined that in many cases Hydrashock were at the top of the heap or at least in the top 5. From what I remember, it seemed the .357 magnum in the 125 grain load seemed to be the benchmark for performance. Later studies using ballistic gelatin seemed to bear that out. Loads that resulted in a wound cavity similar to the 357 125 grain loading did very well in real world shootings. The criteria during the studies was a load that did not over-penetrate and produced a football shaped wound cavity roughly seven inches in length. Super loads like the .41 and .44 magnum did not fare as well because of over-penetration. The best loads dumped all their energy into the target. Muzzle energy turned out to be around 500 ft lb. Studies showed that the 40 S&W in its 155 grain loadings at roughly 1200 fps came pretty close to the 357 magnum ideal. Actual street results from police reports and autopsies seemed to bear this out as well.
Again, keep in mind the performance is based on human subjects. Effective loads for game animals are a different matter, but it seems animals are tougher than humans and need more energy and bullet openetration to be effective unless you are good enough to make hits on the central nervous system.
Again, keep in mind the performance is based on human subjects. Effective loads for game animals are a different matter, but it seems animals are tougher than humans and need more energy and bullet openetration to be effective unless you are good enough to make hits on the central nervous system.
I have read abstract and cliping from that book and while it is a nice gesture I think all the information we have from both history of war and current war is more telling then their study in the book you mention. I have also read some reports by the FBI. Notice that when the rounds were evaluated on their meit 10mm was the choice but once recoil complaints from anemic undertrained lazy field agents came into play they had to change it. If someone is not willing to stay in shape and put in the time dureing training to master a tool that will save you life and stay current what good are you? I hold professionals to much higher standards then the average joe!
The Long Colt 45 has over a hundred years of man stoping performance in the real world in civilians hands and military. It not only stoped plenty of men but could founder a horse. The 45ACP is also know to be very lethal in real world use on humans in combat so much so that all of your US Special Forces still use 45ACP in their pistols and sub guns even though all the rest of the US Armed Forces have gone to 9mm. You also see that most Special Forces personel do not like the .223/5.56mm that is standard issue and you see them grabing every M14 in 7.62/.308 they can get their hands on. their is all kinds of research that says that the M16's 5.56 rounds should be very lethal and cause massive injuries to the enemy but in real world use it has proven to be almost worthless.
My point is that research is only good if it is backed up with lots of real world field trials.Their is a reason that people that actualy have to depend on their weapons to kill quickly usualy gravitate towards larger projectiles that are heavy and move at medium to high velocities. Same thing can be seen when talking about takeing dangerious game no one in their right mind would take a 220 swift over a 404 Jeffry to go bag an elaphant or Rino. No one in their right mind would try to defend themselfs against a bear with a 9mm it would just bonce off even though the velocity is very high. On unarmored flesh a 12 gauge shotgun is unrelenting in the damage it can do with either a slug or 00 buckshot and it is not that fast in terms of velocity.
I do not buy into all the various theories on lethality. I test on game and keep what works and get ride of what does not.Some of the most lethal cartridges in the world are not that impressive on paper but in the real world have proven themselfs like the 6.5mm Sweedish cartridge. It is a ---- cat on paper and has almost no recoil but has been used on everything from elaphants to deer. Some are even useing it to run the course at Camp Pery and in Silihoute and long range target shooting.
The Long Colt 45 has over a hundred years of man stoping performance in the real world in civilians hands and military. It not only stoped plenty of men but could founder a horse. The 45ACP is also know to be very lethal in real world use on humans in combat so much so that all of your US Special Forces still use 45ACP in their pistols and sub guns even though all the rest of the US Armed Forces have gone to 9mm. You also see that most Special Forces personel do not like the .223/5.56mm that is standard issue and you see them grabing every M14 in 7.62/.308 they can get their hands on. their is all kinds of research that says that the M16's 5.56 rounds should be very lethal and cause massive injuries to the enemy but in real world use it has proven to be almost worthless.
My point is that research is only good if it is backed up with lots of real world field trials.Their is a reason that people that actualy have to depend on their weapons to kill quickly usualy gravitate towards larger projectiles that are heavy and move at medium to high velocities. Same thing can be seen when talking about takeing dangerious game no one in their right mind would take a 220 swift over a 404 Jeffry to go bag an elaphant or Rino. No one in their right mind would try to defend themselfs against a bear with a 9mm it would just bonce off even though the velocity is very high. On unarmored flesh a 12 gauge shotgun is unrelenting in the damage it can do with either a slug or 00 buckshot and it is not that fast in terms of velocity.
I do not buy into all the various theories on lethality. I test on game and keep what works and get ride of what does not.Some of the most lethal cartridges in the world are not that impressive on paper but in the real world have proven themselfs like the 6.5mm Sweedish cartridge. It is a ---- cat on paper and has almost no recoil but has been used on everything from elaphants to deer. Some are even useing it to run the course at Camp Pery and in Silihoute and long range target shooting.
Oil Can harry, Some of the worst over penatraters are small non magnum pistol rounds like the 9mm it is notoris for penciling right through someone. The only way around the 9mm's penciling problem is to use a soft hollow point and push it to +P+ velocity to get it to open up almost as soon as it hits to make it start dumping it's energy.
Ballistic gel is a joke and while it serves it's purpose I have seen real world results that contradict what you see in ballistics gel. While it can take more penatration on some game then it does on humans their tissue is liveing and performs just like it does on humans. A Deer or a Pig or Lamb does a good job simulateing shooting at a human. The amount of tissue like bone and muscle are preety close.Secondly it allows you to see just how much penatration the round actualy generates and produces a real wound tht can be examined. Over penatration is not a bad thing as long as the projectile has done enough damage before it exits. Over penatration is stupid nonsense that law enforcement types like to worry about. I find it funny that the average LEO can take 12-14 shots at a crimanal and miss but they have the nerve to worry about over penatration! I would be more concerned about normal penatration of all those rounds that miss their target then over penatration of the one that might actualy hit it's mark! Take a 50 BMG round it will always over penatrate on human target but will often cut the person in half or close to it. If it hits their head their is nothing left of it.
My grandfather had to shoot a Nazi through a pine tree with his Garrand but with an M16 he would be dead.My friends Dad shot a VC in Vietnam with his 1911 Colt 45 in the shoulder and his arm feel off. That was with Hard Ball imagine how much more deadly that would have been with something like some of the new controlled expansion rounds like Power Ball. Look what those bank rober's out in California did with their AK-47's in 7.62X39. History tells a different story then most so called research does. I think that the book you are citeing had some serious bias.
Ballistic gel is a joke and while it serves it's purpose I have seen real world results that contradict what you see in ballistics gel. While it can take more penatration on some game then it does on humans their tissue is liveing and performs just like it does on humans. A Deer or a Pig or Lamb does a good job simulateing shooting at a human. The amount of tissue like bone and muscle are preety close.Secondly it allows you to see just how much penatration the round actualy generates and produces a real wound tht can be examined. Over penatration is not a bad thing as long as the projectile has done enough damage before it exits. Over penatration is stupid nonsense that law enforcement types like to worry about. I find it funny that the average LEO can take 12-14 shots at a crimanal and miss but they have the nerve to worry about over penatration! I would be more concerned about normal penatration of all those rounds that miss their target then over penatration of the one that might actualy hit it's mark! Take a 50 BMG round it will always over penatrate on human target but will often cut the person in half or close to it. If it hits their head their is nothing left of it.
My grandfather had to shoot a Nazi through a pine tree with his Garrand but with an M16 he would be dead.My friends Dad shot a VC in Vietnam with his 1911 Colt 45 in the shoulder and his arm feel off. That was with Hard Ball imagine how much more deadly that would have been with something like some of the new controlled expansion rounds like Power Ball. Look what those bank rober's out in California did with their AK-47's in 7.62X39. History tells a different story then most so called research does. I think that the book you are citeing had some serious bias.
I like the Hydra Shoks. Two in the chest and one in the forehead should stop almost anyone. If that doesn't stop him I'm headin' for the hills!!
John,
I agree with you in part, but I do beg to differ on the point of Sanow and Marshall study and the use of ballistic gelatin as a suitable test medium for bullet performance. Sanow and Marshall DID back up their finding with police reports and autopsy reports from hundreds of shootings. As to the validity of ballistic gelatin, prominent members in the firearms community seem to find its use valid including the FBI.
Is gelatin the best medium? Certainly live subjects would be a more accurate medium, but I doubt anybody would attempt or suggest live human subjects be used. As to the use of animals, the first such instance would be the last with all sorts of fallout from PETA, animal rights and most people in general. The shooting sports are subject to the most negative spins from our mass media today. The last thing in the world we would need is something like this to polarize the public into a complete stance against us.
And lastly, I do agree with you on the use of hardball ammo. It can be counted upon to over-penetrate in just about any caliber. During times of war its use is necessitated by Geneva convention, but any police department that advocates its use in any caliber is setting itself up for massive lawsuits. Collateral damage is the last thing any police department wants for both an economics and public relations stand.
I agree with you in part, but I do beg to differ on the point of Sanow and Marshall study and the use of ballistic gelatin as a suitable test medium for bullet performance. Sanow and Marshall DID back up their finding with police reports and autopsy reports from hundreds of shootings. As to the validity of ballistic gelatin, prominent members in the firearms community seem to find its use valid including the FBI.
Is gelatin the best medium? Certainly live subjects would be a more accurate medium, but I doubt anybody would attempt or suggest live human subjects be used. As to the use of animals, the first such instance would be the last with all sorts of fallout from PETA, animal rights and most people in general. The shooting sports are subject to the most negative spins from our mass media today. The last thing in the world we would need is something like this to polarize the public into a complete stance against us.
And lastly, I do agree with you on the use of hardball ammo. It can be counted upon to over-penetrate in just about any caliber. During times of war its use is necessitated by Geneva convention, but any police department that advocates its use in any caliber is setting itself up for massive lawsuits. Collateral damage is the last thing any police department wants for both an economics and public relations stand.
My vote goes for Corbon they are loaded HOT. Therefore I only use them for carry and practice with regular ammo. I have been quite impressed with Winchester Silvertips on Animals and I would not think a human would fare well on the bussiness end either. They penetrate well. Maybe to well you want the person to absorb the energy for maxium effect, therefore the bullet must not exit the body. PMC used to make a round that the back was a plastic sabot and fell off after luanch making the bullet a true hollow cookie cutter creating a wound channel that would be impossible to treat. They did not last long on the market before the press labeled them cop killers and pulled them off the market. I think they would have been incrediable stoppers.
I carried the Winchester SXT in my .45 and the Ranger 124gr. in my 9's.
One thing you really have to do is buy a couple boxes of the ammo you're planning on carrying. Go to the range and shoot it in every way conceivable: both hands, strong hand only, weak hand only, limp wristing, etc... You want to make sure the ammo is as reliable as possible under less ideal conditions than standing there in an iso stance with a nice grip.
Practice is a big key. A miss with a .50 BMG is still a miss. The only things that count are hits. With the price of ammo these days and me not being a reloader, I've gone almost exclusively with the 9.
One thing you really have to do is buy a couple boxes of the ammo you're planning on carrying. Go to the range and shoot it in every way conceivable: both hands, strong hand only, weak hand only, limp wristing, etc... You want to make sure the ammo is as reliable as possible under less ideal conditions than standing there in an iso stance with a nice grip.
Practice is a big key. A miss with a .50 BMG is still a miss. The only things that count are hits. With the price of ammo these days and me not being a reloader, I've gone almost exclusively with the 9.
Cor-Bon ammo, especially the really fast stuff like the 115gr +P+ 9mm have proven to be pretty poor manstoppers. They expand and fragment very rapidly, which usually prevents the bullet from reaching any vital organs.
There are far better choices today.
There are far better choices today.
You know what all of you are makeing very valid points and even though I might disagree witha few of them they are at least grounded in fact(who fact's?) and are reasonable.
I think controlled expansion is great and the larger and more power the cartridge the more it is needed. I mean this for hunting and self defense. I started useing Barn's X bullet when it first came out and have several loads with them. I love them for hunting!I would not hesitate to use them for self defense. Now my dangerious game loading are a different story all together since they would over penatrate so much that it would be a dangerious and a waste of powder to use it in self defense. My problem with over penatration concerns is about trying to select a suitable cartridge for a Law Enforcement Agency based most on it's propensity to over penatrate. I think that performance on flesh should be the most important consideration since penatration is a factor of velocity,weight and rate of expansion it can be controlled to get what ever performance you want.
Case in point you can take a rifle chambered in 7.62x39 and fire 123 grain bullets at high velocity full auto all day long. If you want to put a silencer on it all you need to do is load up some heavy 220-240 grain bullet with a sub sonic load and the rifle will still function semi-auto, three shot burst, full auto etc... with no need for special projectiles no special gas regulation etc.... So by choseing the bullet and powder carefully you can have one weapon do many things well. Penatration can be controlled just the same.
I think controlled expansion is great and the larger and more power the cartridge the more it is needed. I mean this for hunting and self defense. I started useing Barn's X bullet when it first came out and have several loads with them. I love them for hunting!I would not hesitate to use them for self defense. Now my dangerious game loading are a different story all together since they would over penatrate so much that it would be a dangerious and a waste of powder to use it in self defense. My problem with over penatration concerns is about trying to select a suitable cartridge for a Law Enforcement Agency based most on it's propensity to over penatrate. I think that performance on flesh should be the most important consideration since penatration is a factor of velocity,weight and rate of expansion it can be controlled to get what ever performance you want.
Case in point you can take a rifle chambered in 7.62x39 and fire 123 grain bullets at high velocity full auto all day long. If you want to put a silencer on it all you need to do is load up some heavy 220-240 grain bullet with a sub sonic load and the rifle will still function semi-auto, three shot burst, full auto etc... with no need for special projectiles no special gas regulation etc.... So by choseing the bullet and powder carefully you can have one weapon do many things well. Penatration can be controlled just the same.
Quote:
Cor-Bon ammo, especially the really fast stuff like the 115gr +P+ 9mm have proven to be pretty poor manstoppers. They expand and fragment very rapidly, which usually prevents the bullet from reaching any vital organs.
I bought some of those back when they first came out and were all the rage. I had a couple go pop rather than bang, and one even went click. I no longer buy Cor-Bon ammo.
I think controllability and practice is more important than power. A good 9mm hollow point to a vital location is a very good man stopper. 9mm is easy to shoot and the ammo costs less than larger calibers. I always recommend 9mm or .38 Special for relatively new shooters who want/need a defense gun.
Having said that, the .45 ACP is my favorite cartridge and I have more pistols/revolvers for it than others. If I knew I was going to go to a gun fight (with only a pistol), it would with a 1911 .45. I would not feel undergunned with a quality pistol/ammo in 9mm though.
If I *knew* I was going to be in a gunfight, a handgun would be my last choice. However, if that were my only option and I could pick from any handgun, I'd take a CZ 75 Tactical Sport in 9mm loaded with 147gr Federal HST.
Well since its a little hard to conceal a .308 under your cvoat, I guess youll hace to settle for pistols for self defense. I would have to disagree with the Corbon ammo not reaching vital organs and being too flangable. The shocking power is as important as the actual organs. This why alot of mob hits are a .22 with a zipper shooting style up the torso. The nervous system cant take the overload and shutsdown. I have never seen a 9mm solid core as in the Corbon completely disinegrate to the point it would not penetrate.
Heck, just stick with a good ol .357 Magnum revolver. Even if you hit a bad guy solidly in a limb it will usually put him down. I have a friend who could be sort of a case study. This friend was messing around on a range while in the Army (Big No,No!!!) The friend took a round from a S&W .357 revolver to his forearm, well the round took the better part of his lower arm and made hamburger out of it. Went completely through bone, shattering it and very little forearm muscle left. The Army docs got the arm back to functioning somewhat. Said that it put him on the ground instantly.
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