motor guard conversions

[instigator]

hi folks. been lurking for a little while and now want to ask this simple question about something that might be simple as well.

i have sent a PM to ralph about his modifications to the motor guard air filters to accept oil but had no response. so now i'll ask those of you that have this filter setup.

what i want to know is basically what the mod consist of... i really cant see spending the money for the higher priced modified version when i can get one for half and do the mods myself.

if no one has done this yet i guess i'll be doing it on my own and will post the results. i dont need any hand holding just a little guidance.

thanks keith

 

[RalphPWood]

quote:

---

Originally posted by instigator:

i have sent a PM to ralph about his modifications to the motor guard air filters to accept oil but had no response. so now i'll ask those of you that have this filter setup.

---

From :
"Ralph Wood"

Instigator,
Only someone like me would bring back the Motor Guard submicronic bypass filter as a lube oil filter when Motor Guard gave up on selling lube oil filters 25 years ago. Motor Guard has found happiness in making the very best compressed air filters available. I was a dealer when all they had was lube oil and fuel filters. The name didn't come from compressed air filters. I'm not profit motivated. If I break even at the end of the year it's been a good year. Big companies like Mc Master-Carr can get a better price than I can.
For lube oil or fuel I must remove the polypropylene seals and install CNC machined Dupont Delrin seals. They are known as cores. T.P. needs longer cores to support the T.P. core to keep the oil pressure from collapsing the T.P. core. I install a CNC machined aluminum hold down and a 7/16" locking shaft collar. Then I add shipping to the price of the filter.
Motor Guard has always made die cast aluminum filters. I can sell the Gulf Coast 0-1 jr for less because it is ready to go. I'll put the price back on my website. The 0-1 jr is the easiest to sell because the Military buys a lot of them. The Motor Guard is the easiest to service but if you are going to put it in a horizontal position it doesn't matter. The filters don't care what position you put them in.
My sister in law has a Frantz in a horizontal position for the ATF and a Motor Guard tilted for the lube oil. I removed the big windshield washer tank to make room for it. I replaced the tank with a smaller tank. It was a lot easier in the 60's.
I'm converting to the Motor Guard's at work and my personal equipment. My 59 model Frantz I will keep for sentmental reasons. The rest I will sell. I just pulled a perfectly good Frantz off my tractor transmission and installed a Motor Guard M-30. The Frantz filters paid for themselves many years ago. Your engine doesn't care which of the submicronic filters you use. The 25.00 elements work just as good as T.P. if they can filter to 1/10 th of one micron on the first pass. If you don't change the filters as often as you need to the engine won't last as long. You might get a compressed air filter and drive a sleeve down on the stock cores to keep the slick oil from letting the cores slip off the seats. Add 1/4" to 1/8" bushings and a 1/16 orifice. I don't see much reason for me to sell two different kinds of little filters but it might be good to give people a less expensive choice.

Ralph

From: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Private Message from: instigator - motor guard filters
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 01:03:00 UT

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Subject: motor guard filters

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hi Ralph, i have a couple of Qs about this devise. 1) i see these filter assys on the internet for alot less than what is on the gulf coast site and wanted to know just what you did to these units to warrant the mark up? (humbley asking, not trying to get in your face )

2) can i buy one of these air units and convert it myself? (i know i could, provided i have the info that you posess)

i,m working on a budget here (cut backs and a looming reduction in pay) i know you units are worth every bit that they are commanding, but i just cannot afford the price that they are commanding

3) can these units be mounted in any orientation? i want to mount it on its side onto my frame rail (i have no room in the engine compartment)

thanks keith deas

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[ January 30, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: RalphPWood ]

 

[RalphPWood]

quote:

---

Originally posted by instigator:

i have sent a PM to ralph about his modifications to the motor guard air filters to accept oil but had no response. so now i'll ask those of you that have this filter setup.

---

Sorry tried to send back message PM but somehow messed up, sorry. Ralph

Instigator,
Only someone like me would bring back the Motor Guard submicronic bypass filter as a lube oil filter when Motor Guard gave up on selling lube oil filters 25 years ago. Motor Guard has found happiness in making the very best compressed air filters available. I was a dealer when all they had was lube oil and fuel filters. The name didn't come from compressed air filters. I'm not profit motivated. If I break even at the end of the year it's been a good year. Big companies like Mc Master-Carr can get a better price than I can.
For lube oil or fuel I must remove the polypropylene seals and install CNC machined Dupont Delrin seals. They are known as cores. T.P. needs longer cores to support the T.P. core to keep the oil pressure from collapsing the T.P. core. I install a CNC machined aluminum hold down and a 7/16" locking shaft collar. Then I add shipping to the price of the filter.
Motor Guard has always made die cast aluminum filters. I can sell the Gulf Coast 0-1 jr for less because it is ready to go. I'll put the price back on my website. The 0-1 jr is the easiest to sell because the Military buys a lot of them. The Motor Guard is the easiest to service but if you are going to put it in a horizontal position it doesn't matter. The filters don't care what position you put them in.
My sister in law has a Frantz in a horizontal position for the ATF and a Motor Guard tilted for the lube oil. I removed the big windshield washer tank to make room for it. I replaced the tank with a smaller tank. It was a lot easier in the 60's.
I'm converting to the Motor Guard's at work and my personal equipment. My 59 model Frantz I will keep for sentmental reasons. The rest I will sell. I just pulled a perfectly good Frantz off my tractor transmission and installed a Motor Guard M-30. The Frantz filters paid for themselves many years ago. Your engine doesn't care which of the submicronic filters you use. The 25.00 elements work just as good as T.P. if they can filter to 1/10 th of one micron on the first pass. If you don't change the filters as often as you need to the engine won't last as long. You might get a compressed air filter and drive a sleeve down on the stock cores to keep the slick oil from letting the cores slip off the seats. Add 1/4" to 1/8" bushings and a 1/16 orifice. I don't see much reason for me to sell two different kinds of little filters but it might be good to give people a less expensive choice.

Ralph

[ January 31, 2003, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: RalphPWood ]

 

[instigator]

thanks for the response Ralph it does illuminate a little on just what is invovled in the conversion. i initialy wanted to get the 0-1jr for its simplistic design but i wanted to try the ave. of the motor guard cause i can get the unconverted units for $57.00 and thought the conversion wouldnt be out of the way for me, but since your reply i'll look at the 0-1jr and the frantz's (that sure did sound funny)

can you tell me what the 0-1jrs are made from? the web site just says that the unit is corrosion resistant (leads me to belive that its stainless) that too would be a plus if it were.

again thanks and sorry for my impatients

 

[RalphPWood]

Instigator,
When you have used four different kinds of submicronic filters for as many years as I have you know which ones you like the best. That might not be what someone else likes. All filter makers have their own elements now. Motor Guard submicronic bypass filters use a special paper that is brown and very tightly wound. In my opinion my converted M-30 and M-60 are the only ones properly set up for 1 5/8 ID TP or the special Motor Guard element. The Motor Guard is a better element than TP but they use a 1 1/2 ID polyethylene core. They work fine for fuel or medical use where the filter must be very tight around the core. Not so good when the core melts in hot lube oil. 175 degrees F is the limit. With a little practice you can remove the plastic core and install a 1 5/8" ID TP core. I don't get any price breaks on the Motor Guard element. I don't buy enough. I get them from www.mcmasters.com.
After 40 years of using TP I'm not changing. I will use the special element for fuel. It will keep the fuel crystal clear for over 100,000 miles on my gasoline engines. Probably 10,000 on my Ford diesel.
The plastic core stretches over the Delrin bottom seal and makes a positive seal. I don't like to have anything reach the stock fuel filter. If it gets past the submicronic fuel filter it doesn't even slow down for the stock filter.
Gulf Coast has a sock type element. I ordered them. I get the big ones. They are easier to change. They are assembled. You just slide them in. There is some NASA influence there. I doubt that the big marine fleets that use 1000 or more rolls of Bounty towels a week will pay extra for the sock type elements.
The 0-1 jr is glass filled nylon with stainless steel hardware.
As far as I know Frantz still makes an aluminum base with a chrome plated steel cannister. They will all do some serious cleaning. I sent some of my CNC machined parts to David the President of Motor Guard. He said I was ahead of the curve. I told hom he needed to get back in the lube oil filter business. He said no I will just send the lube oil filter customers to you. I said I'm getting ready to retire. He said you are not going to retire.
I bought 2 manifolds to hook up 3 M-30's in parallel. The manifolds were over 60.00 apiece. I think I will stick to hoses. Manifolding is expensive but very effective. I'm working on the best way to equip a new Duramax with fuel, ATF and lube oil filters. I sent one to Gulf Coast.
If these guys knew it they could probably have had GM install the big GM part # 1507 1671 lube oil filter at the factory. Especially if they demanded the filter be installed before they bought it. Not sure what they charge. They install the big filters on medium duty trucks. I don't see any reason they wouldn't install them on the Duramax.

Ralph

 

[instigator]

thanks for the info about the differences in the units. i'm really looking at the 0-1jr harder now thanks to your info. iwould have really like to get the motor guard but i really cant stand cast alum. and that kinda puts the frantz in that catagory. what i really want is something thats over engineered(although its not needed) much like the CM filters link i really like the fact that the 0-1jr is a glass filled composite and that just make the decision that much easier. also i have seen on different web sites that they range from $83-$160 what gives with this. of course i want to spend the leaset for the most so maybe you could email me about your prices

i tell ya ive been catchin some guff at work trying to spread the word about this topic. ive got one guy thats an amsoil dealer and that guy must be brain washed about there filters, he just wouldnt listen to me or accept that the TP filters screen out a smaller particle.
do you have anything in your arsenal of words or letters that would help me convince these folks?

thank keith

 

[RalphPWood]

Instigator,
I was looking at a new 6.0 Powerstroke. On top of the engine is the cannister type filter. The lid looked like glass filled nylon. They sure use a lot of it on cars. Gulf Coast has a mountain of info. All of the best bypass filters can filter down to well under one micron. All of the best bypass filters use cellulose of some type. To be submicronic requires that the cellulose be thick and dense. When you are shopping for Gulf Coast 0-1 jr filters you will see prices for the filter with or without hose and fittings. One way or the other you will be paying shipping. Be careful about a sales pitch where it is claimed that one small element will go farther between changes than another. The better the filter and the smaller the filter the more often it needs to be changed. Thats been the rule since submicronic bypass filters have been around. Filters that clean oil have been around a lot longer than Motor Guard, Amsoil, Gulf Coast or even Frantz. Keeping oil clean isn't something recently dreamed up. All a filter maker can do is make recommendations. The equipment owner is the final judge on how often to change the filter. If you don't change the filter often enough the wear rate will be higher.
I can email you a package of info. Bringing back the Motor Guard is a problem because all the info is 30 years old. "Dune Buggies and Hot VW's" test results spring 1972 for example.

Ralph

 

[instigator]

i havent seen the fords yet but yeh, car manufacturers use quite a bit of the fiber filled composites these days (complete intake manifolds etc..)i realy like it as well. i have a few guns that are made by "plastic"

.


when you say that to be carefull of the sales pitches of smaller going farther i take it you are refering to something like oilguard filters? i have been looking at them as well but there web site just praises the filtering capability of it i want to know mainly the construction of the units. they do appeal to me cause i have no room in the engine bay of my 4runner (except a spot just under the batt) but i dont think that it supports the TP elements.


these fitting arent special are they. i mean just a couple of pipe elbows and some fuel line (well gotta get the oil cooler adapter for the spin on oil filter ) but plumbing shouldnt be that difficult should it?

 

[RalphPWood]

The fill neck on the 6.0 powerstroke looked like glass filled nylon. That looks like a good place to return the oil if you mounted a little filter near the battery. I didn't have a ladder so I couldn't see the top of the engine too well. The oil pressure switch might be just behind the cannister oil filter. It looks like a saddle valve like you use to tap into a water pipe for a water filter or ice maker would work fine. Use the clamp and throw away the valve. You could make a stronger one than they use for water. It would work to tap into a Cummins turbo return. I used a Gulf Coast self tapping hollow bolt in a 466 International dip stick tube. I think a filter company that claims their filter can go farther between changes should also tell people that they will also have a higher wear rate.
Gulf Coast doesn't want the PeremaCool adapter used with their filters. My wife took an order for a 0-1 jr from a mechanic in Memphis, TN yesterday. He said he had just ordered a PermaCool adapter. Whoops. The PermaCool adapter has a tendancy to hold the bypass filter full of oil after shut down.
The Motor Guard M-30 is reversable. It will filter from the bottom up. That makes changing a breeze when the filter doesn't drain good. The free oil is under the element. My old Motor Guard isn't reversable. It only filters from the bottom up. I like choices. I designed the bottom seal on the M-30 and M-60 to work fine either way. The oil pressure will cause the core to tighten up on the seal. The dugout delrin is slick enough that it will turn loose at filter change. On my Camry I use a ATF Motor Guard. The ATF Motor Guard will only work with ATF or engine oil with the PermaCool sandwich adapter. It has a element bypass orifice for fast warm ups in cold weather. I drilled a 1/8" hole in the PermCool adapter to keep the relief valve from holding the filter full.
To hook up a bypass lube oil filter on a Toyota in the conventional way you will need a metric adapter for a tee at the oil pressure switch. Thirty years ago we carried a 1/8" pipe tap. Put some grease on it and enlarge the threads enough to put in the NPT tee. The metric oil pressure switch will go into the tee. I wouldn't hesitate to use a good fuel injection hose with clamps. I wouldn't use low pressure fuel hose. I'm using weatherhead fluoroelastomer hose that may last forever. I think J C Whitney has the same hose. I got mine from a Weatherhead dealer. Working pressure 125 PSI 900 PSI bursting pressure. -30 degree F to 275 degree F. The kit came with fuel injection clamps. I also bought some GATES hose (push on). I paid an extra dollar a foot for the fabric coated hose. When I got it home I found out it was very hard to get it on unless you are very strong or have a push on hose machine. I'll use it at work. My company will buy it if I do the work. I have a Gulf Coast 0-1 on a Detroit 8.2. The hose is 10 years old. I'll get rid of 20" right there. A couple of Cat lift trucks will get rid of another 20 ft. A couple of customers like it and told me they didn't have any trouble with it. May be some Ace hardware barb hose fittings and worm gear clamps work for us weaklings. The Gates dealer said there is a trick to it. Yea, right.

Ralph

 

[instigator]

you mentioned that gulf coast doesnt want people to use the sandwich adapter. but it seems to me that the gulf coast and others like it (ie..frantz,motor guard ) filter the same way.

now if i cant use the adapter i just wont use a bypass filter at all. cause i'm not putting holes in any of my engine parts regaurdless of its simplicity. i will ponder this a little longer and try to scrounge parts to make one myself. hell i work in the aviation ind. i should be able to find something that will work.

thanks for your help though.

 

[RalphPWood]

They all work the same way. Frantz is the only one that makes their own sandwich adapter. Motor Guard no longer makes adapters but they have given the PermaCool sandwich adapters the OK. IF I sell someone a Gulf Coast 0-1 jr it is their business what kind of adapter they use with it. As a dealer of Gulf Coast filters I cannot promote the use of the adapters with the Gulf Coast filter. I can sell a filter that has given the OK to use an adapter.
About 20 years ago Amsoil didn't recommend the use of adapters. When people started using other filter makers adapters that changed. The customer has the power. You can only carry the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" ideas so far.
To use a sandwich adapter with a Frantz. Frantz said to drill out the orifice. The PermaCool adapter treats all submicronic bypass filters like they are a restricted oil cooler. The more resistance the wider the relief valve opens. If the relief valve is in the sandwich adapter the oil bypasses into the full flow filter. If the relief valve is in the engine the oil bypasses into the engine directly without being filtered.
I ran an ad in a Texas magazine this month and an old guy called me looking for a Frantz . All he was interested in was a Frantz. He was an old Frantz user. He was a funny guy. He said don't talk to me about diesel engines. Don't talk to me about Motor Guards or Gulf Coast filters I want a Frantz! He is now the proud owner of an old Frantz oil cleaner. It cleaned up nicely.
A guy from Minneapolis that has four 1971 model Motor Guard M-100's left over from a VW repair business wants to connect one to filter cooking oil to burn in his diesel. My 35 year old technical manual tells how to do that for diesel fuel.
A Canadian with a Motor Guard M-30 on his Mercedes 300 D said he needs three more. One for fuel. It's been a busy week.

Ralph

 

[instigator]

i glad your business is booming, especialy in these times. so let me see if i caught your drift, although you cannot recommend the adapter for the gulf filters they can be used and have been done so successfully?

also i really dont know if the motor that i have has the bypass in the block or is relying on the filter for its pressure bypass (to guess at it i would think that the engineers wouldnt rely on a filter to regulate the system pressure).

when i do get every thing together i will no doubt enlist your help with the whole setup

 

[Ken2]

Insti--

We're talking about two different valves here---three valves if you include the sandwich adapter.

Your engine's oil pump has a pressure control valve. When the pressure starts to get excessive, the pressure control valve dumps part of the oil flow back to the sump.

Almost every engine needs a differential pressure bypass valve in the oil filter curcuit. If the pressure differential through the full flow filter gets excessive (e.g., cold oil) the bypass valve opens and ensures full flow of oil to the engine. Most engines have this differential pressure control valve (bypass valve) inside the filter. GM (and maybe a few other makers) put this valve in the oil filter mount (did I get that right?).

The Perma-Cool sandwich adapter is designed to be used with a Perma-Cool oil cooler. It screws on the oil filter mount between the engine and the filter. It diverts oil to the cooler then back, and contains a 4 psid internal valve to bypass the cooler in case the cooler is too restrictive. With a bypass oil filter, it would be used just like the cooler, except that most of the oil would go through this Perma-Cool bypass valve directly to the full flow filter and then to the engine. A small amount of your oil would go through the bypass filter, then be returned to the engine oil circuit by means of the sandwich adapter's return port.

The Hayden sandwich adapter has a thermostatic valve in it...isn't right for a bypass filter.


Ken

 

[instigator]

Ken thanks for the lesson about these adapters, since i havent messed around with them i dont know how they work (except the thermal bypass)

i have emailed Canton racing about thier universal adapters for oil coolers to see wheather they will work for the bypass filter application (just want the billet adapter

dont really like cast allum. all that much)

but i have been looking at the amsoil bypass system (the double filter sys.) they are a bit pricey and really dont want the dual sys. but i want something that i dont have to guess at (plug and play)but the elements are like the above statment pricey.

 

[RalphPWood]

Instigator,
Actually my day job pays for my filter habit. I send out a lot of literature. There is banner ads, etc.
A TDI member is sending me a 1971 complete Motor Guard still in the box. He has four left over from a VW repair business he sold. I'm sending him adapters for the other three and a new Motor Guard M-30 for fuel. The old Motor Guards were designed for 1 1/2" ID toilet paper. Filter makers are getting away from using toilet paper -- toilet paper doesn't sound good. I use Scott Kimberly Clark rolled cellulose now. Toilet paper is history. Gulf Coast uses sock type filters now. Toilet paper is high quality cellulose. Cellulose is the best lube oil filter known. The challenge is to come up with something that works as good as toilet paper and paper towels that can be called something else. The world is crazy.
Ken said it right. For a Chevy V* for example I would use the PermaCool 189 universal sandwich adapter with a Ford type 3/4 - 16 thread filter. I would use a PermaCool teflon GM relief valve plug so that the GM relief valve couldn't bypass both filters. After you get it all together and start the engine you will know everything is working right if your oil pressure is good and the bypass filter heats up. Give the bypass filter some time in cold weather. Filters that clean oil are all restrictive.
I have a customer that is a GM technician at a local dealership that would give me an advantage there. The equivanent filter to the Gulf Coast 0-1 is the GM part #15071671 so that is another advantage. Navistar installs the 0-1 as optional equipment so that helps. Don't use a PermaCool adapter with the big filters. When you start the engine after filter change you would have six qts of air bleeding into the oil system instead of the crankcase.
Be careful that you don't end up with a system with less capacity and non submicronic. Also don't buy into the old "you can go farther between changes." There is a price to be paid for not changing the filter often enough. Normal wear is not a good thing to strive for. The only time a remote full flow filter makes any sense is when it is hard to get to or there is no room for it. PermaCool suggested that I install a dual remote system on a Cummins Dodge. They had the filter relocation adapter but didn't have the sandwich adapter. If there was enough demand I would have my machine shop adapt the Ford adapter to fit the Cummins. I think the Cummins is a 1" - 16 thread. The relief valve is in the engine. Actually what their system amounted to was a remote filter mount adapter with hoses going to the single remote mount such as a #1211 3/4 - 16 threads. Then you install the #181 sandwich adapter on that with a Ford filter. Then you run small lines to the submicronic bypass filter.
It's actually very simple. Me trying to explain it is what makes it seem complicated.

Ralph